Harry Wills where do you rank him?

Top 20 probably.

 

To make note here, I really don't think Langford was "fairly prime" when he fought Wills.

I can't remember quite where Wills was last time I compiled an extended heavyweight list, but I think he places somewhere in the #15-35 range, probably towards the middle.

 

He's around #17 on my list. A great fighter, proven by his resume. It's just a pity that he never got the title shot(s) he deserved. :good

 

Based on resume i would probably rank him in the top15, too bad there's no good footage of him in his prime.

 

I rate Langford higher Lb 4Lb, Wills is a case of unknown potential because he should have been able to fight the best, an OLD wills VS Uzcudun was a frail fighter, who went down hard, and was far from impressive but a Prime Wills VS Dempsey would have been good but I think Jack would win by KO

 

I tend to agree with this. Langford was still very good / slightly past his prime when Wills beat him. On the other hand one could say Wills was on his way up. The early fights were close. When Langford began to age, the series went all Wills way.

The sad truth today is Wills is mostly a forgotten fighter.

It is interesting that note that Wills fought many of the fighters Johnson would not as Champion. These men of course were Langford, Jeanette, McVey, and Clarke. IMO, Wills defeated more prime versions of Langford, Jeanette, and McVey than Johnson did.

So how come Wills gets zero press for doing this, while some point to Johnson beating very green versions of McVey and Jeanette, or a very small version of Langford as big wins? If beating ranked fighters equates to a high ranking, then perhaps Wills should be close to Johnson. Does anyone think this makes sense?

I have some news reads on Wills. If the poster known as McVey doesn't ad nausuem, I can post a few Harry Wills reads. Wills was a very strong fighter. He had a good right hand, and good body punching. He was a big man in his day and a good in-fighter. On the downside, Wills chin vs power punchers was somewhat suspect, and he may have lacked some grit.

I think Wills has a case for being a top 25-15 guy. Although you never see it mentioned, I'd pick Wills to defeat Willard in 1915-1917.

 

I find it hard to get a true measure of Wills because so many of his bouts against the "Black Dynamite " were no decision bouts.
If we look at Wills against Langford we see that in decision fights Langford wins the first 3,in 1914 when Sam was 31 Langford wins by ko in 14,in1916,Langford loses a dec to a at age 33 ,but then comes back to ko the 27 year old Wills.Wills after this dominates their series,Langford never wins again,later in the year Wills wins on points.1918Wills kos the 35 yearold Langford.
twice in 6 and 7 rounds.
1919 Wills decisions Langford ,now36 twice..1920 wills repeats a decision win.Finally in 1922Wills outpoints Langofrd now 39 over 10rds
It seems Langford slightly past his best still beats a prime Wills.
Mcvey.Wills loses to Mcvey in1914.by dec,Sam is 30.1915 A good win for Wills hedecisions Mcvey over12 Sam is still only 31 ,not past it.
They meet for the last time in1918,Wills scores ako in 5,Mcvey is going down hil at 34.score Wills 2 ,Mcvey 1 Wills possibly the superior ,by a shade.
Wills meets Battling Jim Johnson who may have been very unlucky not to have been given the verdict against Jack Johnson ,when Jack retiree with a broken arm..The first fight is in1915 Wills wins a good dec over 20.1917 Wills is kod in 2 by Jim ,a bad defeat.
In decision fights with Jeff Clarke Wills is allways the master winning all the series,and koying Clarke at least 5 times.
Wills has a long resume ,but wins over a going down hill Mexican Pete Everett in 1914,a 4 round dec over Willie Meehan the same year,arent dynamic.Ako in 3 over Fred Fulton in 1920 is good.In 1921 Wills kos Gunboat Smith in 1 and repeats this feat over Denver EdMartin ,but both men are sliding badly.Wins over Kid Norfolk in 1922 are respectable ,though Norfolk was a LH.Adecent win over Bartley Madden in 1924.Kos over Charkey Weinert and Floyd Johnson in 1925 ,but now the sun has firmly set for Harry .In 1926 a ringworn Wills fouls out to Jack Sharkey to save himself a beating.Was Wills that great?You decide. For me if a slow moving crude puncher like Battling Jim Johnson can ko Wills when Harry is in his prime a DEmpsey would have torn his head off..Wills was a big poweful heavyweight,he fought a lot of smaller guys Langford was around 5 7 to Harrys 6 3 Jeff Clarke was considerably smaller Norfolk was a LH,if you apply these reservations to other fighters ,you must do the same to Wills.Id say Wills was better than the likes of Godfrey but not in Langford or Jeanettes class.Put him around 35 in a list of 50.

 

I see you got your stick out again ,I must commend you for managing to slip derogatory coments about Johnson into a thread about the ability of Harry Wills,very insidous of you,actually we more a less a gree about Wills I think ,which troubles me a bit ,however post your clippings ,why should I object?

 

McVey, quick question! Who beat better versions of McVey, Langford, and Jeanette. Johnson or Wills? I ask for your response. Not answering questions is the weakest form of debate. It mostly means you're right, but I just can't admit it.

 

Wills beat ,better versions of Langford and Mcvey ,he never beat Jeanette.Ill answer any question put to me . One for you what has any of this to do with rating Wills ability as asked for by the original poster?.Get off Johnson for awhile ,you sound like a stuck CD player.

 

Some news reads on Wills:

Langford, Fulton, Norfolk, and Madden, and Jackson.

http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?res=9501E0D7133FE233A25757C0A9649D946496D6CF

http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?res=9D02E3DB1E30E633A25754C2A9619C946195D6CF

http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?res=9B04E3DC1F30EE3ABC4B53DFB5668389639EDE

http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?_r=1&res=9B0DE2DD1039EF3ABC4850DFBE668389639EDE&oref=slogin

 

Very good, so if you beleive Wills beat better versions of Langford, and McVey, then he probably defeated better fighters than Johnson beat if you factor in primes and experience levels when the match happened. This has everything to do with where Wills should be rated. When rating a fighter, you have to look at how he did in the ring vs the best fighters he fought, his over all record, and give it a best guess.

Wills did get a news paper decision over a prime Jeanette, which is a good performance.

 

I dont see the Johnson connection and Im pretty sure no one else will.I only listed decision fights as no decs are open to "interpretation "as you have conclusively proved.

 

1: Joe Louis
2: Muhammad Ali
3: Rocky Marciano
4: James J. Jeffries
5: Lennox Lewis
6: Joe Frazier
7: Jack Dempsey
8: Jack Johnson
9: Larry Holmes
10: George Foreman
11: Harry Wills
12: Sonny Liston




He´s very underrated, legacy-wise and head-to-head. He beat fighters like Sam Langford (like 17 times out of 20), Sam McVea, Charley Weinert, Luis Angel Firpo, Jeff Clark, Denver Ed Martin, Joe Jeanette, Bill Tate, etc, IMO he have to be in a Top 15 HW-list...