Even if Williams really was as great a puncher as he's been cracked up to have been, he almost certainly wasn't the kind of hitter he'd once been by the time he got to Chuvalo. However, it is yet another fight against a name opponent with a punch in which Chuvalo stood in there toe-to-toe and was not knocked down.
Cleve was 6 to 7 years past getting blasted by a high powered hand gun to the gut and getting beat up by Ali. The Big Cat had nothing left at that time....he was 38 years old. But all us Houstonians loved The Big Cat.
You have every right to, L71. I trained at Miami's Fifth St. Gym with him, when he was at his peak. It was frightening to see him load-up on the heavy bag. The room shook, like putting an ear next to 16-inch guns shelling the shore.
How do you compare Williams' power to say Marciano, Frazier or Liston???? Grebfan9 www.firstroundboxing.com
G9, Based on my own experience, watching those guys train and fight , I'd have to put it this way: Williams slammed the big bag with faster (especially the hook), but equally as heavy shots as Liston -- certainly as loud. But they were more sharp cracks; Liston's were thunder. Liston and foreman were similar; they loaded-up and tried to explode the bag. Frazier was a hooking machine -- tireless. The biggest impression he made was with the hook, not the right hand. Marciano was an animal, with both hands. He never wound down (absolutely the same intensity), no matter how many rounds he pounded an extra large heavy bag. Every blow threatened to cave it in. Had jaded gym rats gaping. Rocky was the least impressive sparring. Looked no more then a clumsy journeyman. But every slick "gym fighter" who made him look foolish, came outta the ring after four rounds looking like he'd been hit by a bus.
MarcianoFrazier, I have a couple of obscure Cleveland Williams fights on film late 1950s.....He could really really crack(especially with that darn left hook which he was fast enough to triple with), the experts of that era certainly didnt underate his power. Marcianofrazier think about this for a second.......All of the big sluggers throughout history guys like shavers, lyle, godfrey,valdez, H bobo, Ruddock, Tua, Mac Foster etc etc etc were all made to look foolish by A class Boxers. However, Cleveland is the one big slugger who actually wasnt outboxed let alone made foolish by A class boxers. Now I understand Williams didnt face a wide range of contenders, but Like elmer ray williams was very avoided. When Williams at/near his prime stepped up and faced A class boxers Ernie Terell and Eddie Machen he did quite well. Eddie Machen is viewed as one of the better technical boxers through history, eddie outboxed many many big sluggers throughout his career but was unable to do so vs williams.......He fought him to a draw. I think machen would have outboxed many of the top sluggers of different eras, but williams is different because unlike the other sluggers williams had the rare fast handspeed to go along with his size, power, jab that other big sluggers lacked. He knocked out one of the top contenders of the 1960s 6'6 Ernie Terell(something no one else did for a while) who was a very underated boxer. Terell who outboxed many top boxers of that era was unable to use his height jab and skill to outbox williams in 2 fights. In the Rematch, Terell was knocked down early and got up and was awared a hotly disputed split decision verdict. We dont know how he would have done vs patterson since Damato wanted no part of him. Might it have ended like liston fights? we will never know. Williams gave a prime liston his toughest fights, he actually beat liston at his own game in both fights in round 1, staggering and breaking listons nose in the first fight, outjabbing liston, outslugging liston early on until listons patience, perseverence and superior durability enabled him to put away Cleveland. We dont know how he would have done vs Ingo, H johnson, Patterson, Folley, Moore, etc etc but I think its safe to say H johnson, folley, moore wouldnt have there way with williams like they did vs baker and valdez. Patterson we dont know how he would deal with a less durable taller sonny liston type fighter. does ingos right get there first before williams left hook? did ingo ever fight a man of williams size, speed, power? will folleys chin that let him down very often sucumb to one of clevelands bombs? I personally think Cleveland is one of the best contenders of that era, and would have done very very well vs the other contenders of that era and throughout history. My father once told me, that cleveland williams could have been an ATG and the only thing that kept him from being a great fighter was lack of a top jab. He said if williams had been developed a top jab, he would have been very unbeatable.
Wow Joe R.....don't let my long boring post ruin your incredible insight. Keep the stories coming. Very interesting stuff about Clevelands power.
I'd say he had some left, yeah. The man was ALWAYS going to know how to punch, and have some of that killer power left. Getting it to fire off is a completely different story, though.
Not really Williams was well faded ,I was going to say shot ,but thought it was a bit of an obvious joke!
