Has Carl Froch's SMW resume surpassed Joe Calzaghe's?

ApatheticLeader · Jun 6, 2011

Body Head said: ↑

Calzaghe's resume

Chris Eubank
Byron Mitchell
Jeff Lacy
Charles Brewer
Richie Woodhall
Mikkel Kessler
Robin Reid

Carl Froch

Jean Pascal
Mikkel Kessler
Arthur Abraham
Glen Johnson
Jermain Taylor

Carl Froch won against Kessler but lost against Dirrel. Right now Carl isn't ahead of Joe but with one more big win on Carl's resume he will surpass him.
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Mitchell and Brewer are far inferior to any of the fighters on Froch's list there and shouldn't really be counted. Actually, so was the version of the hideously overrated Eubank that Calzaghe beat.

Maximus · Jun 6, 2011

KO KIDD said: ↑

he was undefeated defended the title over 20 times for 9 or 10 years

if froch can get 5 years and 10 defenses then we will talk
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Have to take issue with that. Froch is nearly 34 and I doubt that he wants to fight bums for 10 years just to beat Calzaghe on longevity, and Joe fought a LOT of bums to maintain that record.

ApatheticLeader · Jun 6, 2011

bailey said: ↑

Probably not. But why should he have to? Its the champs privilege to fight at home. Froch didnt want to travel but didnt have a promoter that could get the fight at home for him. Same as when ****** couldnt get Calzaghe at home against Veit.
J Taylor should have travelled to fight Froch, not the other way around
Yes Eubank was supposed to fight at LHW, but 2 weeks is alot of notice as many fighters boil down in the last few days. Calzaghe was also well overweight with 2 weeks to go.
The example you give is also poor as Calzaghe wasnt a K Holmes, he was an unknown nobody and underdog.
As for Eubank
How far past prime was Eubank to you then?
Eubank had lost a close decision to Collins, that many thought he won, had a couple of tune ups and rematched Collins to a SD, had a couple of tune ups and lost clearly to underdog Calzaghe. After that loss Eubank went up to CW and challenged world champ Thompson losing a very close decision and then rematched Thompson losing on injury when ahead. Thats Thompson who years later past his best KOd D Haye.
Consider Eubank only had 2 losses to one fighter when he fought Calzaghe, the second by SD to a world champ and was 31 then went on to challenge a big CW flooring him etc, how past his prime do YOU think he was?
Remember Kessler is Wards big win and was the same age as Eubank here and had around the same amount of fights
Depends on the fight. I dont know why you call Calzaghe hometown Joe as he only had around half of his world title fights in Wales, the rest were away in different countries atsch. Consider Calzaghe beat Hopkins, Jones, Eubank, Reid, Woodhall and Veit away.
What you also dont note is Froch was fighting Kessler coming off a clear loss
Beyer was a 3 time WBC champ who has wins over Woodhall WBC champ, Lucas WBC champ, Sheika, Sanavia WBC champ and Green who is now a world rated CW who has beaten undefeated B J Flores, scored a 1st round KO over Jones, a 1st round KO over Briggs who pushed Adamek and is next fighting Tarver.

As for Lacy
Lacy beat Vanderpool to become champ in a fight for the vacant IBF belt vacated by Ottke
Lacy beat Sheika who went on to challenge for the WBC title after and who recently gave former WBC LHW champ Diaconu a hard fight
Lacy beat R Williams who was 26-1 at the time
Lacy beat R Reid a dangerous world rated SMW who looked unlucky against Ottke. Reid had beaten undefeated Magee who is Butes next opponent and who became European champ and after losing to Lacy beat Brinkley who coincidently, was Butes last opponent.
Lacy also beat Pemberton who was on a winning run of 5 and had twice beaten Sheika in those 5 wins.
After Lacys loss he went on to
Beat Tsypko who had beaten Magee (Butes next opponent) by close debateable decision and undefeated Adamu.
Lacy also beat the other top American SMW of his time at the top in Manfredo

Both those fighters have done alot more at SMW than Pascal, Taylor and Dirrell that you rate as top wins

You seem very ignorant or know very little about alot of the fighters Joe beat, I guess (without trying to insult) you are taken in by hype atsch. Consider Pascal wasnt even a highly regarded SMW and Calzaghe beat the fighter that beat Pascal
Taylor was only 2 fights past a loss and lost his next fight
Dirrell hasnt even beaten anyone and has a far lesser resume than Veit
Kessler BEAT Froch and Kessler was coming off a clear loss. Calzaghe beat Kessler when undefeated
Abraham was coming off a loss and has no big wins
Johnson was only 2 fights past a loss and has 15 losses, and Calzaghe beat 2 fighters that beat Johnson and at least a couple other fighters who have beaten fighters who beat fighters who beat Johnson

As noted, I like Froch but some people get very carried away. Froch is around a similar achievement level to B Mitchell at this time
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Most of this is unbelievably ******ed, I honestly don't know where to begin - but I goess I'll start with your mentioning Johnson's defeats from years ago as any sort of form basis or indication to his current ability, what, do fighters not improve and learn in your screwed up world?

Kessler was coming off a loss - so what? This loss was against the very best and doesn't reflect badly on him in any way.

As of right now, you're right to say that Dirrell has an inferior resumé to Veit, although you probably failed into account both the fact that Veit fought in a weak era AND the difference in quality between the European circuit and the difference in quality between the European and North American circuit (with the better commissions) - basically whilst Veit's best opponents are better than Dirrell's, Dirrell has got the superior base body of work.

Did you really quote Lacy's defeat of Tsypko as an example of his ability, because that's scraping the bottom of the barrel. Who did Tsypko ever beat
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Just because Pascal wasn't a highly regarded Super-middle, doesn't actually mean he wasn't a good one. Other than the Froch defeat, do you have any evidence that he was better at 175 than at 168? Yes, Calzaghe's win over Hopkins is better than Froch's over Pascal - but it's better than anything else Calzaghe has ever done (win over Kessler aside).

As for Eubank, he simply wasn't very good as it is (don't get me started...) and he lost damn near every round in the second Collins fight, and this is by Eubank's own admission.

In short, while Calzaghe has the biggest wins, the depth of Froch's resume is better.
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KO KIDD · Jun 6, 2011

Maximus said: ↑

Have to take issue with that. Froch is nearly 34 and I doubt that he wants to fight bums for 10 years just to beat Calzaghe on longevity, and Joe fought a LOT of bums to maintain that record.
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he beat everybody at the weight some former holders good fighters shame jones or hopkins would never fight him until he was marketable in the US a prime 4 prime fight would have been great vs Hopkins and Jones

bailey · Jun 7, 2011

ApatheticLeader said: ↑

Most of this is unbelievably ******ed, I honestly don't know where to begin

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Yeah yeah, throw the insults and after I have schooled you, you will see what ******ed looks like

- but I goess I'll start with your mentioning Johnson's defeats from years ago as any sort of form basis or indication to his current ability, what, do fighters not improve and learn in your screwed up world?

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Odd how Americans like to say Johnson has improved while still losing yet when Calzaghe beat Hopkins sandwiched between Hopkins best wins of Tarver, Wright and Pavlik, they called Hopkins shot. Anyway though lets stick to your view point and say Johnons improved while his record in the last 8 fights of now is 4-4-0 and Johnsons best SMW victory is Green coming off a loss atsch. Yes fighters can improve but Johnson hasnt improved enough to win. 15 losses and 2 draws should tell you something

Kessler was coming off a loss - so what? This loss was against the very best and doesn't reflect badly on him in any way.
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Kessler lost to the very best in Calzaghe, but Ward wasnt the very best when Kessler fought him and still hasnt proven himself the best yet atsch

As of right now, you're right to say that Dirrell has an inferior resumé to Veit, although you probably failed into account both the fact that Veit fought in a weak era AND the difference in quality between the European circuit and the difference in quality between the European and North American circuit (with the better commissions) - basically whilst Veit's best opponents are better than Dirrell's, Dirrell has got the superior base body of work.

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You completely ignorant twat. Veit fought in a much stronger era with 2 of the greatest SMWs ever and a 3 time WBC champ who on his own had more title fights than Froch and Ward combined and beat fighters that are still world rated now.
The European SMW scene has always been far tougher than the American scene. Who did Manfredo beat to be put in the Ring top 10. Nobody as good as Veit who was overlooked. I cant understand how unless being bias can put Dirrell above Veit.
Veit had beaten undefeated Dziarra who wasnt a great fighter but did go on to beat L Mock and undefeated M Oral who would go on to challenge MW champs A Abraham and S Sylvester recently.
Veit had also beaten beaten undefeated Guerrero for the European union title.
Veit beat future title challenger Salem and Mock.
Veit also beat world rated C Brewer with an educated destructive 9th round KO.
A note on Veit. He only ever lost to world champs or fighters who became world champs and has victories over Mock, Salem, Perdermo (a future Kessler challenger), Brewer when Brewer was world rated and Veit beat undefeated Braehmer who was the WBO LHW champ.
Whats Dirrell done to that level. NOTHING

Did you really quote Lacy's defeat of Tsypko as an example of his ability, because that's scraping the bottom of the barrel. Who did Tsypko ever beat
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Who did Froch beat decisively? Johnson, Dirrell. Froch was behind against Taylor who Pavlik outpointed. Sure Tsypko had some close fights but he also has some good wins including then undefeated Adamu who looked unlucky to many against Froch. Though I doubt you know that fact :nut

Just because Pascal wasn't a highly regarded Super-middle, doesn't actually mean he wasn't a good one.
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Agreed it doesnt mean he wasnt a good SMW, but it didnt show him to be a good SMW. In fact I recall a fight between Pascal and Miranda fell through because Pascal didnt look impressive

Other than the Froch defeat, do you have any evidence that he was better at 175 than at 168? Yes, Calzaghe's win over Hopkins is better than Froch's over Pascal - but it's better than anything else Calzaghe has ever done (win over Kessler aside).
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atsch So Pascal didnt beat anyone of note at SMW yet you think thats a better SMW win than Lacy with a far superior record and looking impressive going in. Veit has a better resume at SMW as does Mkertchyan. You think Pascal is a better win than Woodhall who beat WBC champ Malinga, future WBC champ Catley, former WBC champ Nardiello, future WBA LHW champ Branco etc atsch, or Reid who beat WBC champ Nardiello away in Italy, world rated Wharton, undefeated Magee who recently challenged Bute, future WBC champ Cherifi, Brinkley who later challenged Bute and then Reid pushed Ottke looking unlucky.
Only a fool or someone ignorant who doesnt know would think Pascal was a better SMW victory than Eubank, Reid, Mitchell, Lacy, Woodhall etc In fact Sheika had beaten Johnson even.

As for Eubank, he simply wasn't very good as it is (don't get me started...) and he lost damn near every round in the second Collins fight, and this is by Eubank's own admission.

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How far past prime was Eubank to you then?
Eubank had lost a close decision to Collins, that many thought he won, had a couple of tune ups and rematched Collins to a SD, had a couple of tune ups and lost clearly to underdog Calzaghe. After that loss Eubank went up to CW and challenged world champ Thompson losing a very close decision and then rematched Thompson losing on injury when ahead. Thats Thompson who years later past his best KOd D Haye.
Consider Eubank only had 2 losses to one fighter when he fought Calzaghe, the second by SD to a world champ and was 31 then went on to challenge a big CW flooring him etc, how past his prime do YOU think he was?
Remember Kessler is Wards big win and was the same age as Eubank here and had around the same amount of fights
At SMW Eubank beat Watson, Rocchigiani, Wharton, Holmes and drew with Benn.
Remember when you make silly comments about losses was G Johnson considered past his prime when years ago after losing to Hopkins he went 7-9-2 including the Hopkins loss

In short, while Calzaghe has the biggest wins, the depth of Froch's resume is better.
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Look Im a big Froch fan, but just dont get taken in by hype. Froch has never beaten a world champ yet. Froch looked lucky to many against Dirrell and to some against Johnson. Froch was behind against Taylor before a fantastic KO.
Mitchell was a 2 time WBA SMW champ
He beat #1 Liles (something Ward is praised for doing) by KO
drew with future 2 weight champ Girard
beat Siaca twice who went on to become WBA SMW champ who beat Mundine
beat former MW champ JC Green who beat a prime Joppy before Joppy was beaten by Trinidad or Hopkins.
Mitchell only lost by SD to Ottke and was only ever beaten clearly once as a SMW.

Now I rate Froch above Mitchell but I remember the hype for Mitchell being similar when he first KOd Liles and how is Mitchell remembered now?

Mitchell did beat some world champs and if you look at his SMW resume it is also greated than Pascals, Taylors, Dirrells, Abrahams and Johnsons
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Maximus · Jun 7, 2011

KO KIDD said: ↑

he beat everybody at the weight some former holders good fighters shame jones or hopkins would never fight him until he was marketable in the US a prime 4 prime fight would have been great vs Hopkins and Jones
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Name me 3 world-class fighters that Joe fought one after the other. I'm a Calzaghe (and Froch) fan, but Joe padded that record out with a shitload of nobodys and fought the odd name here and there until the very end. Froch on the other hand, is on a straight run of 6 elites with a 7th coming up, all within 30 fights of turning pro (and most of them away from home). We can all sit here and pick apart who beat who and who didn't lose to who, but if Joe had fought Froch's last 6 opponents over his ENTIRE career his biggest fans would be telling us what an incredible resume it is.

As I've said numerous times, I believe Joe schools Froch head to head, but Froch is at least equal and pulling away on resume alone. Factor in that he hasn't had tune-ups with bums in between and he's ahead already.

bailey · Jun 7, 2011

Maximus said: ↑

Name me 3 world-class fighters that Joe fought one after the other.
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Kessler the WBC WBA SMW champ undefeated
Hopkins the Ring LHW champ
Jones the Ring #6 LHW champ

Manfredo before Kessler was in the Ring top 10

I'm a Calzaghe (and Froch) fan,
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So am I.

but Joe padded that record out with a shitload of nobodys and fought the odd name here and there until the very end. Froch on the other hand, is on a straight run of 6 elites with a 7th coming up,
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Dont be fooled by hype.
Pascal wasnt a top SMW when Froch beat him and had done less than Veit, At SMW Veit has done more than Taylor, Abraham, Johnson etc.
Remember that Taylor was only 2 fights removed from a loss.
Kessler was coming off a loss
Abraham was coming off a loss
Johnson was only 2 fights removed from a loss

all within 30 fights of turning pro (and most of them away from home). We can all sit here and pick apart who beat who and who didn't lose to who, but if Joe had fought Froch's last 6 opponents over his ENTIRE career his biggest fans would be telling us what an incredible resume it is.

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It is a good run for Froch but in 30 fights Calzaghe had beaten Eubank, Reid, Woodhall who are more accomplished SMWs with better SMW resumes than Pascal, Taylor, Dirrell, Abraham and Johnson. In that 30 fights Calzaghe had beaten 6 fighters that had, were or would be in the top 10 rated SMWs.

People forget and only remember today

As I've said numerous times, I believe Joe schools Froch head to head, but Froch is at least equal and pulling away on resume alone. Factor in that he hasn't had tune-ups with bums in between and he's ahead already.
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I think you are a bit taken in by the S6 hype. It is a great competition but Abraham and Dirrell wouldnt be considered big wins and Abraham was coming off a clear loss, as was Kessler who beat Froch
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Maximus · Jun 7, 2011

bailey said: ↑

Kessler the WBC WBA SMW champ undefeated
Hopkins the Ring LHW champ
Jones the Ring #6 LHW champ

Manfredo before Kessler was in the Ring top 10

So am I.

Dont be fooled by hype.
Pascal wasnt a top SMW when Froch beat him and had done less than Veit, At SMW Veit has done more than Taylor, Abraham, Johnson etc.
Remember that Taylor was only 2 fights removed from a loss.
Kessler was coming off a loss
Abraham was coming off a loss
Johnson was only 2 fights removed from a loss
It is a good run for Froch but in 30 fights Calzaghe had beaten Eubank, Reid, Woodhall who are more accomplished SMWs with better SMW resumes than Pascal, Taylor, Dirrell, Abraham and Johnson. In that 30 fights Calzaghe had beaten 6 fighters that had, were or would be in the top 10 rated SMWs.

People forget and only remember today
I think you are a bit taken in by the S6 hype. It is a great competition but Abraham and Dirrell wouldnt be considered big wins and Abraham was coming off a clear loss, as was Kessler who beat Froch
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You sure do like boxreccing. You criticise Froch's opponents for coming off losses, but include Jones Jr as a world class fighter at the time Joe fought him when he had lost 3 of his previous 6? Or Bhop losing 2 of his previous 4? Obviously Hopkins has gone on to show he's still live, but Jones was shot to **** and everyone knew it, and Manfredo? The same Manfredo coming off two losses and only got his shot because he was on The Contender? That was a PR exercise, not a fight. You also bring up fighters like Abraham, who was heavily picked to win on this very site. It's only after the fact that people call him a hype job, much like Lacy was.

The reason I said 3 world-class opponents is because I know only Joe ever fought 2 in a row, and that was Kessler and Bhop at the very end. The Jones fight was boxing's version of a gold retirement watch, only Jones didn't get the same memo. Joe's whole resume is peppered with the occasional class fighter sandwiched by 'who the **** are they?' nobodies and he has only himself to blame. I begrudge no boxer the right to earn a living, but don't **** in my mouth and tell me it's chocolate.

Few could doubt that Joe was a fantastic boxer, but this thread is about resumes, and Froch is at least equal at this point.
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Lance_Uppercut · Jun 7, 2011

bailey said: ↑

Jones the Ring #6 LHW champ

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You're a shameless ****...and the ONLY person in the world who things that win means anything. atsch

Lance_Uppercut · Jun 7, 2011

Maximus said: ↑

You sure do like boxreccing. You criticise Froch's opponents for coming off losses, but include Jones Jr as a world class fighter at the time Joe fought him when he had lost 3 of his previous 6? Or Bhop losing 2 of his previous 4? Obviously Hopkins has gone on to show he's still live, but Jones was shot to **** and everyone knew it, and Manfredo? The same Manfredo coming off two losses and only got his shot because he was on The Contender? That was a PR exercise, not a fight. You also bring up fighters like Abraham, who was heavily picked to win on this very site. It's only after the fact that people call him a hype job, much like Lacy was.

The reason I said 3 world-class opponents is because I know only Joe ever fought 2 in a row, and that was Kessler and Bhop at the very end. The Jones fight was boxing's version of a gold retirement watch, only Jones didn't get the same memo. Joe's whole resume is peppered with the occasional class fighter sandwiched by 'who the **** are they?' nobodies and he has only himself to blame. I begrudge no boxer the right to earn a living, but don't **** in my mouth and tell me it's chocolate.

Few could doubt that Joe was a fantastic boxer, but this thread is about resumes, and Froch is at least equal at this point.
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I applaud your effort to talk about boxing with Bailey, but he's just a boxrec ranger. Nothing more. Pretty obvious from how he posts. Good luck!

Rudyard · Jun 7, 2011

sportofkings said: ↑

Not quite yet, but hes getting very close. Another few good wins on his resume and id gladly say yes.
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Exactly how I see, he's on par to shatter him as far as resume talks goes...Also to add, Froch is fighting in the division when its loaded with potential mega fights...Cant exactly say the same for Joe when he fought in the division.

Give Froch at least 1 year and a half and he'll surpass Joe as far as resume' talks go!:good

Rudyard · Jun 7, 2011

iceferg said: ↑

Pascal = weight drained/green, Dirrell = green/over rated. Johnson CLEARLY beat Froch last night. He landed the better shots and was the aggressor through out. All Froch had to do was make it close and his nut huggers/the judges would give him the fight. Abraham had already been beaten by Miranda @ middle + lost his last fight, but he some how ranks along side Lacy.
Look at guys Calzaghe destroyed like Veit. Veit's beaten several world class guys (even a Light Heavyweight Champion) but he's still written off as a 'bum'.
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atsch You cant be serious with this ****!! Please tell me how the hell Johnson won that fight???

All Froch had to do was make it close and his nut huggers/the judges would give him the fight.

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I love how you try to call people nuthugger when they dont see eye to with your opinion!

Rudyard · Jun 7, 2011

iceferg said: ↑

Lol I don't give a **** what anybody says Johnson won last night. Just like he won about 9 rounds against Dawson the first time around and all of Dawson's nut huggers (he had many at the time) backed up the decision. Froch didn't really win many clear rounds at all last night. Close rounds should be split evenly (but when TV companies and promoters want someone to win they never are). Certainly as 1 36 minute round Johnson takes it but he did enough anyway. 116-112. If Johnson was the big name guy, all the money was behind, he would have won last night and nobody would be complaining.
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Again, based on what????

Rudyard · Jun 7, 2011

kmac said: ↑

let me help out your logic bailey. john l sullivan lost to corbett, who lost to fitzsimmons, who lost to jeffries, who lost to johnson, who lost to williard, who lost to firpo, who lost to godoy, who lost to louis, who lost charles, who lost to h. johnson, who lost to moore, who lost to ali, who lost to holmes, who lost to holyfield, who lost to ruiz, who lost to jones, who lost to calzaghe.

you see when joe defeated an almost 40 yr old jones, he actually became the greatest heavyweight of all-time as seen from above.
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:rofl:rofl:rofl:rofl You need to stop...I'm snitching...stop beating down a simple minded ******!

kmac · Jun 7, 2011

Rudyard said: ↑

:rofl:rofl:rofl:rofl You need to stop...I'm snitching...stop beating down a simple minded ******!
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ok, good point. i'll back off.

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