Has Carl Froch's SMW resume surpassed Joe Calzaghe's?

PugilisticPower · Jun 7, 2011

Not really.

The type of talent Froch is currently facing is high due to this tournament, but realistically if you look back over the years of who would have been in Super 6 tournaments during Joe's day......

Ottke would have been the Bute and not been in it.

You'd have had guys like Reid, Woodhall, Veit, Mitchell, Starie, Mkertchian, Lacy, Kessler, potentially Manfredo.

The difference is simply that we know more about Ward, Dirrell, Froch, Kessler, Abraham, Taylor, Johnson - because the marketing as part of this tournament has been amazing.

Froch with a loss against a fighter that wasn't the same after his fight with Calzaghe shows you the difference in skill and I think ultimately, Froch is definitely on the way to defining a proud legacy with his back to back to back to back performances but he's got a long way to go to catch 24 - 0 in title fights and defeating 12 former/current/future world champions.

Maximus · Jun 7, 2011

Rudyard said: ↑

Again, based on what????
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Posts like Iceferg's make me feel so much better about myself. I can console myself that thinking Froch beating Dirrell or Calzaghe beating Hopkins isn't such a bad thing depending on how you view a fight. But then I have to ask, in what universe did Johnson win that fight? Did walking forward and missing lots suddenly become the new criteria for winning? Do you get points subtracted for clearly dominating rounds? Does one hard right hand outscore a 6 punch combo?

I want to live in this universe that Iceferg currently resides in. I'd be P4P No 1 going by his scoring. . .

Rudyard · Jun 7, 2011

kmac said: ↑

ok, good point. i'll back off.
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:rofl No, please keep it up! Its funny watching him get hit with his own medicine!:good

Rudyard · Jun 7, 2011

Maximus said: ↑

Posts like Iceferg's make me feel so much better about myself. I can console myself that thinking Froch beating Dirrell or Calzaghe beating Hopkins isn't such a bad thing depending on how you view a fight. But then I have to ask, in what universe did Johnson win that fight? Did walking forward and missing lots suddenly become the new criteria for winning? Do you get points subtracted for clearly dominating rounds? Does one hard right hand outscore a 6 punch combo?

I want to live in this universe that Iceferg currently resides in. I'd be P4P No 1 going by his scoring. . .
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Thats what I'm saying...Froch landed the most telling blows IMO...I figured Froch was gonna be in for a hard fight given that Glen comes to fight for most of his fights...With that being said, I honeslty dont see how anybody can make a case for Johnson winning...He didnt do enough...Hell, if you watched the post fight interview...Johnson hinted that he didnt do enough to secure the victory if you actually paid attention to his post fight interview.

So for somebody to say that whoever scored the fight for Froch must be a nuthugger honestly needs to sit back and take a look in mirror. Dude must be smoking some crack for him to make a comment like that !

ApatheticLeader · Jun 7, 2011

bailey said: ↑

Yeah yeah, throw the insults and after I have schooled you, you will see what ******ed looks like
Odd how Americans like to say Johnson has improved while still losing yet when Calzaghe beat Hopkins sandwiched between Hopkins best wins of Tarver, Wright and Pavlik, they called Hopkins shot. Anyway though lets stick to your view point and say Johnons improved while his record in the last 8 fights of now is 4-4-0 and Johnsons best SMW victory is Green coming off a loss atsch. Yes fighters can improve but Johnson hasnt improved enough to win. 15 losses and 2 draws should tell you something
Kessler lost to the very best in Calzaghe, but Ward wasnt the very best when Kessler fought him and still hasnt proven himself the best yet atsch

You completely ignorant twat. Veit fought in a much stronger era with 2 of the greatest SMWs ever and a 3 time WBC champ who on his own had more title fights than Froch and Ward combined and beat fighters that are still world rated now.
The European SMW scene has always been far tougher than the American scene. Who did Manfredo beat to be put in the Ring top 10. Nobody as good as Veit who was overlooked. I cant understand how unless being bias can put Dirrell above Veit.
Veit had beaten undefeated Dziarra who wasnt a great fighter but did go on to beat L Mock and undefeated M Oral who would go on to challenge MW champs A Abraham and S Sylvester recently.
Veit had also beaten beaten undefeated Guerrero for the European union title.
Veit beat future title challenger Salem and Mock.
Veit also beat world rated C Brewer with an educated destructive 9th round KO.
A note on Veit. He only ever lost to world champs or fighters who became world champs and has victories over Mock, Salem, Perdermo (a future Kessler challenger), Brewer when Brewer was world rated and Veit beat undefeated Braehmer who was the WBO LHW champ.
Whats Dirrell done to that level. NOTHING
Who did Froch beat decisively? Johnson, Dirrell. Froch was behind against Taylor who Pavlik outpointed. Sure Tsypko had some close fights but he also has some good wins including then undefeated Adamu who looked unlucky to many against Froch. Though I doubt you know that fact :nut
Agreed it doesnt mean he wasnt a good SMW, but it didnt show him to be a good SMW. In fact I recall a fight between Pascal and Miranda fell through because Pascal didnt look impressive
atsch So Pascal didnt beat anyone of note at SMW yet you think thats a better SMW win than Lacy with a far superior record and looking impressive going in. Veit has a better resume at SMW as does Mkertchyan. You think Pascal is a better win than Woodhall who beat WBC champ Malinga, future WBC champ Catley, former WBC champ Nardiello, future WBA LHW champ Branco etc atsch, or Reid who beat WBC champ Nardiello away in Italy, world rated Wharton, undefeated Magee who recently challenged Bute, future WBC champ Cherifi, Brinkley who later challenged Bute and then Reid pushed Ottke looking unlucky.
Only a fool or someone ignorant who doesnt know would think Pascal was a better SMW victory than Eubank, Reid, Mitchell, Lacy, Woodhall etc In fact Sheika had beaten Johnson even.
How far past prime was Eubank to you then?
Eubank had lost a close decision to Collins, that many thought he won, had a couple of tune ups and rematched Collins to a SD, had a couple of tune ups and lost clearly to underdog Calzaghe. After that loss Eubank went up to CW and challenged world champ Thompson losing a very close decision and then rematched Thompson losing on injury when ahead. Thats Thompson who years later past his best KOd D Haye.
Consider Eubank only had 2 losses to one fighter when he fought Calzaghe, the second by SD to a world champ and was 31 then went on to challenge a big CW flooring him etc, how past his prime do YOU think he was?
Remember Kessler is Wards big win and was the same age as Eubank here and had around the same amount of fights
At SMW Eubank beat Watson, Rocchigiani, Wharton, Holmes and drew with Benn.
Remember when you make silly comments about losses was G Johnson considered past his prime when years ago after losing to Hopkins he went 7-9-2 including the Hopkins loss
Look Im a big Froch fan, but just dont get taken in by hype. Froch has never beaten a world champ yet. Froch looked lucky to many against Dirrell and to some against Johnson. Froch was behind against Taylor before a fantastic KO.
Mitchell was a 2 time WBA SMW champ
He beat #1 Liles (something Ward is praised for doing) by KO
drew with future 2 weight champ Girard
beat Siaca twice who went on to become WBA SMW champ who beat Mundine
beat former MW champ JC Green who beat a prime Joppy before Joppy was beaten by Trinidad or Hopkins.
Mitchell only lost by SD to Ottke and was only ever beaten clearly once as a SMW.

Now I rate Froch above Mitchell but I remember the hype for Mitchell being similar when he first KOd Liles and how is Mitchell remembered now?

Mitchell did beat some world champs and if you look at his SMW resume it is also greated than Pascals, Taylors, Dirrells, Abrahams and Johnsons
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Basic questions:

1) Have you ever seen the Collins/Eubank II fight? In fact, how much of Eubank have you seen fullstop? If you HAD seen it you'd have known that Eubank lost every round of that fight, again by his own admission, and therefore it's probable that he was past his prime, especially considering the far superior effort in the first fight and before fighting Calzaghe he was basically semi-retired taking nothing fights in North Africa.

2) Do you realise your epic idiocy when mentioning Lolenga Mock in a form line despite his numerous defeats at a level far lower than Glen Johnson's defeats (or the people Johnson lost to)?

3) Do you realise that people decline at different rates and ages, so when someone mentions that people were only a certain age when they fought another person, it means jack ****? Of course you don't, that's why you mentioned it like the moron that you are.

4) The creme de la creme of the SMWs were in Europe during Calzaghe's time, but everything directly underneath and below were in America. Do you have ANY idea how many highly rated European fighters (and European champs, for that matter) have gone to the USA to fight a journeyman, got beat, and gone back to Europe to continue their career? (examples: Danilo Haussler and THAT'S what I meant when I said that the North American scene is stronger than the European - it's much harder to build up a good record in the Northern States with the big commissions. That's what I said, and then you go and bring up Manfredo, a effing Providence fighter.

So let's bring up a New York fighter instead: Curtis Stevens. One of the big governing bodies, one of the toughest circuits in the US, yes? Proven not to be elite, but when an unbeaten fighter from Europe (Piotr Wilczewski) came to the USA to fight Stevens, he discovered the difference in levels was huge and got stopped in 3. You'd never guess who's European Super-Middle Champion now?

As of right now, Veit has probably done more than Dirrell resumé wise by beating Brahemer and Brewer (which is probably a little better than I gave him credit for). But come the end of Dirrell's career he will have easily surpassed Veit.

Finally, you've really got to stop mentioning championship belts as if they mean a damn thing.
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conraddobler · Jun 7, 2011

ApatheticLeader said: ↑

bailey said: ↑

Basic questions:

1) Have you ever seen the Collins/Eubank II fight? In fact, how much of Eubank have you seen fullstop? If you HAD seen it you'd have known that Eubank lost every round of that fight, again by his own admission, and therefore it's probable that he was past his prime, especially considering the far superior effort in the first fight and before fighting Calzaghe he was basically semi-retired taking nothing fights in North Africa.

2) Do you realise your epic idiocy when mentioning Lolenga Mock in a form line despite his numerous defeats at a level far lower than Glen Johnson's defeats (or the people Johnson lost to)?

3) Do you realise that people decline at different rates and ages, so when someone mentions that people were only a certain age when they fought another person, it means jack ****? Of course you don't, that's why you mentioned it like the moron that you are.

4) The creme de la creme of the SMWs were in Europe during Calzaghe's time, but everything directly underneath and below were in America. Do you have ANY idea how many highly rated European fighters (and European champs, for that matter) have gone to the USA to fight a journeyman, got beat, and gone back to Europe to continue their career? (examples: Danilo Haussler and THAT'S what I meant when I said that the North American scene is stronger than the European - it's much harder to build up a good record in the Northern States with the big commissions. That's what I said, and then you go and bring up Manfredo, a effing Providence fighter.

So let's bring up a New York fighter instead: Curtis Stevens. One of the big governing bodies, one of the toughest circuits in the US, yes? Proven not to be elite, but when an unbeaten fighter from Europe (Piotr Wilczewski) came to the USA to fight Stevens, he discovered the difference in levels was huge and got stopped in 3. You'd never guess who's European Super-Middle Champion now?

As of right now, Veit has probably done more than Dirrell resumé wise by beating Brahemer and Brewer (which is probably a little better than I gave him credit for). But come the end of Dirrell's career he will have easily surpassed Veit.

Finally, you've really got to stop mentioning championship belts as if they mean a damn thing.
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Bailey is on record saying that Sergei Dzinziruk would have beaten Thomas Hearns at light middleweight.
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Arcane · Jul 25, 2011

conraddobler said: ↑

ApatheticLeader said: ↑

Bailey is on record saying that Sergei Dzinziruk would have beaten Thomas Hearns at light middleweight.
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What? :blood
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BoxingAnalyst · Jul 25, 2011

I believe he has. Calzaghe was the better fighter prime for prime no doubt. But Froch has that mentality of "I'll fight anybody, anytime, any place" Calzaghe didn't have that.

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