Has the Classic forum learned anything in the old vs modern debate?

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by cross_trainer, Aug 21, 2021.



  1. cross_trainer

    cross_trainer Liston was good, but no "Tire Iron" Jones Full Member

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    As perennial Classic topics go, the reigning champion has to be the old school vs modern debate. Are older heavyweights too small? Are modern fighters obese slobs? Is feinting/infighting/footwork/jabbing/whatever a "lost art"? What about steroids? Why does Corbett fight like a coked-up jackrabbit who's never seen a jab before? Could Sullivan hip-throw Lennox Lewis under London Prize Ring Rules? Howsabout the fact that Anthony Joshua got slaughtered by a short, blubbery, spherical sort of fighter?

    I remember when I first came onto these forums back when they were still ESB. Similar debates were going on. (And I remember antagonizing both sides.) They do not seem to have gone away, although the terrain looks like it's shifted slightly here and there. The advent of accessible film has been huge, for starters...

    Here's the question, though, especially for the older forum members:

    What have we learned?

    I'm not asking whether one side or the other has "won" the debate.

    But surely we must have learned *something* in over a decade of arguing about this stuff? Additional nuances we hadn't considered before? Myths busted? That kind of thing? At the very least, some arguments must have gotten *refined* over the years, surely, as the combatants dug up and deployed more evidence?

    For my own part, a few things that immediately spring to mind -- if only as talking points -- are things like the mythbusting of Marciano's superhuman workout regimens, and the film footage showing just how different/premodern boxing really looked even a couple decades into the 20th century. The minor sub-debate that opened over Jesse Owens and the merits of cinder tracks (relevant, in turn, to the value of modern training) was also interesting, but I think ultimately a bit of a dead end.

    How has the old vs modern controversy shifted for you since you first entered the Great Debate? Have things progressed at all? Anything that made you stop for a moment and think, "Huh. Maybe the other guys have a point..."
     
    Last edited: Aug 21, 2021
  2. Kamikaze

    Kamikaze Bye for now! banned Full Member

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    War- war never changes.
     
  3. Dempsey1238

    Dempsey1238 Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    So you think the Roman army armed with spears and swords can defeat a army from today?
     
  4. roughdiamond

    roughdiamond Ridin' the rails... Full Member

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    All the posters who have learnt a lot on this topic inevitably, slowly or suddenly, stop posting about it. That's just how it works. Why beat a dead horse? The reality is that an incredible well of debate and information has been drawn up here over time, to the point where it would take years if you fully analysed and investigated it to form your own conclusions - and it would broaden your horizons massively, to the point of not needing another new thread on it ever. It's all there, and has been for years. The same people you see, keeping it going in those pointless rehash threads over an over again are just attention craving dopamine junkies or outright trolls. The best posters on the subject inevitably get driven out or leave, as the time it takes to formulate the thoughtful responses is not worth it when your post is barely considered, and almost immediately disregarded, by the majority, and you find that the next day, next month, next year, there is a 'new' 'Marciano vs x' thread, '19xx vs 20xx' thread, 'big vs small' etc. containing the exact same infuriating arguments from the exact same posters.

    Let's be honest, look at the quality of the average poster on here. You do start thinking 'why the **** do I bother?' when you visit. The truth is that both the broad and specific arguments were settled a long time ago and can be found relatively easily with the search function and some curiosity. Sadly, I doubt this thread will stay on page 1 for more than a day whilst it is replaced with a rehash heavyweight match up, despite the effort you have put into it.

    In essence, nothing has changed here and it will never change. It will just get to the point enough people leave or die off and new posters will just rediscover the same arguments. If you have a brain, lurk the old posts, take and save the good stuff, and then quickly move onto much better topics like the scorecard threads.
     
  5. Kamikaze

    Kamikaze Bye for now! banned Full Member

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    We must break the cycle RD- I am considering scouring the archives and making a bible of sorts a link to all the major questions with the best answers I can find from the classic golden era.

    Once a month till the end of my days I shall bump such a thread till the day comes when I can no longer use a computer and my son shall take on my sacred duty.
     
  6. Kamikaze

    Kamikaze Bye for now! banned Full Member

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    ?
     
  7. cross_trainer

    cross_trainer Liston was good, but no "Tire Iron" Jones Full Member

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    That's kind of depressing. Has it really gotten that bad around here?

    Speaking from a personal standpoint, I learned a lot from these sorts of arguments when they were going on years ago, and they seem to have made a limited sort of progress since. One wonders whether they should just be indexed in an FAQ or outline for newer posters.
     
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  8. roughdiamond

    roughdiamond Ridin' the rails... Full Member

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    I have actually thought of doing this myself - a type of mega thread as a resource. Just the simple fact is that it is so time intensive and mentally demanding to try and create it, and then even when you do, it would only appeal to the sorts who would search out the info and develop their own engaging ways of interaction anyway. I don't think the juice is worth the squeeze unless you were writing a legitimate book and needed sources.
     
  9. Dempsey1238

    Dempsey1238 Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    You said War never changes, but things have chance. From the American Civil War were they fought in formations to WW1 were Trench warfare was the norm.
     
  10. cross_trainer

    cross_trainer Liston was good, but no "Tire Iron" Jones Full Member

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    It's funny -- I just posted a similar thought while you were writing yours.

    The idea of an endless cycle is kinda sad though, if true. I remember in the early 2000s, when some of these fights produced a lot of interesting new historical information, plus citations to scientific literature, etc. (And a lot of juvenile insults, admittedly.)
     
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  11. cross_trainer

    cross_trainer Liston was good, but no "Tire Iron" Jones Full Member

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    You might be able to make it a collective, gradual effort. After the thread is started, invite people to submit their own sources at the outset. And then add new ones every so often when you run across them.

    As long as it was stuck to, someone could gradually edit a skeletal bibliography into something massive over time. It's like the question about how to eat an elephant: one bite at a time.

    EDIT: You could also thin down the task a bit by only collecting arguments supported by sources: whether that be peer reviewed articles, primary newspaper sources, old boxing manuals, fight footage, etc. That would avoid having to consider whether to copy some random poster's musings or not.
     
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  12. roughdiamond

    roughdiamond Ridin' the rails... Full Member

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    If I was to say my personal opinion, then these debates basically became completely stagnant around 2017 - 2018 period, and the forum took a nosedive and has yet (if ever) to recover it's former peak. Posters that were engaged to proper debate beforehand moved onto to other things or just didn't engage anymore (Mcvey is gone, tin is gone, etc etc een George has seemed to stop posting and he was new). We're just left with the same posters and mostly strawman arguments when regarding the old vs modern debate specifically (scorecard threads, video and info sharing etc are actually better than ever imo but these don't get the majority of interest). I myself spent years lurking the old threads before even making my first post. I honestly just completely avoid those topics and heavyweights now and enjoy it here so much more.
     
  13. cross_trainer

    cross_trainer Liston was good, but no "Tire Iron" Jones Full Member

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    Yeah, I kind of got sick of it myself around 2018 when the discourse was getting nastier and less open to give and take.

    That said, the comment you made above about writing a book is actually intriguing. There *is* such a book out there -- The Arc of Boxing -- but it's older. It would be cool if this forum assembled an FAQ thread that ultimately spawned one or more book projects on the topic.
     
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  14. roughdiamond

    roughdiamond Ridin' the rails... Full Member

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    It is an interesting subject, I agree. The Arc of Boxing is quite a unique book and I can't really think of another exactly like it. The FAQ idea is a great one but both the time investment and the fact the best posters for it aren't even here anymore does hamper it for me somewhat. There are some posters on here (who, as I've said, moved on) who are actually compiling info and slowly writing a book on ancient and very old-school boxing etc - @escudo is one of them who you'll still see semi-frequently, and I'd highly advise looking into @GlaukosTheHammer and @BitPlayerVesti profiles and old threads for some serious informational treats, some of which I would legitimately stand by as being the best compilations of info I've seen in any Boxing sphere of thought.
     
  15. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    Yeah, it's true that arguing about heavyweights over and over again and old v new over and over again is fruitless once you've been here for a while. But I don't think it's as existentially anxt as @roughdiamond makes out. There are a million million things to talk about in boxing. If you're consistently talking about something that bothers you, or consistently making the same posts (or not) over and over again, of course it becomes boring.

    At that point, people who only want to discuss heavyweights or any other single thing, do tend to leave the forum, be it permanently or for a spell and then return. But I think the really good posters expand learning, look at new and different divisions, different eras, and try to start discussions surrounding more unusual or difficult topics.

    There is no single subject that can hold the attention for life, in any walk of life.
     
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  16. Kamikaze

    Kamikaze Bye for now! banned Full Member

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    I am as green as spring grass round these part and I think I’m already on my way out too RD. It’s only a matter of time before I’m debating politics with the Professor in lounge for all eternity like so many other lost souls. :cool1: