Has the Classic forum learned anything in the old vs modern debate?

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by cross_trainer, Aug 21, 2021.

  1. mr. magoo

    mr. magoo VIP Member Full Member

    Jan 3, 2007
    I try not to generalize any era being stronger than another. If you took the Top ten best of two eras and paired them up there’d be casualties on both sides
  2. FrankinDallas

    FrankinDallas Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

    Jul 24, 2004
    Lucille Ball in B&W is STILL hot.

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  3. cross_trainer

    cross_trainer Liston was good, but no "Tire Iron" Jones Full Member

    Jun 30, 2005
    You can't fool me with your fake black and white footage of hot women. The Before-Times are a myth.
    Last edited: Aug 22, 2021
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  4. Saintpat

    Saintpat Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

    Jun 26, 2009
    On balance, society is better served having footage of prime Lucille Ball than Greb.
  5. OvidsExile

    OvidsExile At a minimum, a huckleberry over your persimmon. Full Member

    Aug 28, 2012
    Dangerousity kind of pissed me off with his recent thread in the general about how much old time boxers suck. I tried showing him some film clips of Benny Leonard.
    I think that guys like Leonard, Tunney, and Loughran look great, even though their guards are lower and if you can't see all the good stuff they are doing just because they aren't doing the same things we do now, you aren't looking. So what if their guards are low? Look at how effective they are. Look at their footwork, distance, timing. They have lots of defense. Their defense isn't reliant on a high guard is all. Look at all of their head movement, crouching, and bending at the waist. Or the way they aren't all squared up the whole time and their head is off line. I'm seeing clear masterful technique. It's just not modern textbook. To me, I think that great kickboxing form is obvious even though it's not boxing form. Same thing. Or I can see an unorthodox guy like Sergio Martinez and Muhammad boxing with their arms down low but still looking marvelous. What's important is that what they are doing is working.

    I tried showing him a clip of Loughran vs Braddock so he could get a sense of a difference in technical skill from fighters of that time, because Leonard vs Tendler and Ross vs McLarnin wouldn't show enough daylight between two elites. It didn't work. I was trying to show him that someone like Braddock or Mike McTigue would fit the characterization he was painting the whole era with, but then you could show this gulf in talent between primitive sluggers and the pound for pound cream of the crop and how the top guys were different.

    I don't know how you explain to some people that different isn't synonymous with bad and there is more than one way to do things.
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  6. Bokaj

    Bokaj Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

    Jan 4, 2008
    Bigger? I think Kovalev weighed about the same as Rocky in the ring, and that was when he had to make weight.

    No problem what so ever with Rocky as favorite, but I just see nothing crazy with pitting Rocky against the best his weight in recent times.
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  7. dangerousity

    dangerousity Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

    Jan 4, 2005
    Alas, the process of evolution tells us what will be effective and not. The stance of holding your hands by your stomach with chin sticking up in the air whilst going in and out of a straight line was bred out through the process of evolution. Meaning it become ineffective over time as people started getting ktfo.

    Go into any boxing gym. Have 2 guys of equal level spar and one fights like benny Leonard and another like Loma or Lopez.

    That fact that you had guys like Langford go from LW to HW is telling of the competition. It’s Mayweather vs Logan Paul all over again. The skill gap allows for it, which can only mean, a great small man vs poor big men.
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  8. cross_trainer

    cross_trainer Liston was good, but no "Tire Iron" Jones Full Member

    Jun 30, 2005
    Leaving aside who's right about the ultimate question, I don't think this is a fair test. Modern fighters, as you point out, are not trained to fight like Benny Leonard. He didn't even leave any instructional material behind like (for example) Jack Dempsey did with his manual. A modern fighter trained to fight like, well, a modern fighter isn't going to be able to play Benny-Leonard-for-a-day effectively having never trained in that style.

    To really have a fair experiment, you'd build a gym around well-documented training materials from that period, and then wait a decade to see how well the products of that gym could fight. Think Brendan Ingle's gym, with the way it supposedly trained a lot of its fighters in that Hamed style.

    But I don't think such an experiment would be practical. There (probably) just aren't enough people out there who'd want to train at "Dempsey's Championship Fighting Old School Gym." Aside from the hipsters, whom you probably wouldn't want.
    Last edited: Aug 23, 2021
  9. FrankinDallas

    FrankinDallas Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

    Jul 24, 2004
    Check this one out. Ms Ball was a "pal" of gangsters back in the day before Hollywood.

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  10. White Bomber

    White Bomber Boxing Addict Full Member

    Mar 31, 2021
    We have learned that more modern ATGs usually beat old time ATGs
  11. salsanchezfan

    salsanchezfan Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

    Aug 22, 2004
    These kinds of arguments rarely hold any useful insights. It degrades into a mud-slinging argument between the gray hairs here and the pimply kids, both of whom feel they must defend their generation's honor by claiming the other one is %$#@ compared to theirs.

    It's comforting on some level to know that once upon a time some crotchety old ******* was calling Joe Louis an unskilled upstart whippersnapper. And on it goes.
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  12. 70sFan865

    70sFan865 Boxing Junkie Full Member

    May 30, 2019
    What a shame that you wasn't available to tell that Ali - you'd turn him into modern fighter instead of this joke he showed inside the ring!
  13. OvidsExile

    OvidsExile At a minimum, a huckleberry over your persimmon. Full Member

    Aug 28, 2012
    Well said, dangerousity is willing to give unorthodox modern fighters like Roy Jones the benefit of the doubt for not following the modern textbook but won't lend the same favor to old timers who have a slightly different style. Most of what I find people complain about with older fighters is their low guard stance. Detractors say that makes them hittable and yet we don't see them getting hit in the footage. I think that they had defense which didn't rely on blocking with a high guard. Take the footage of Barney Ross vs Jimmy McLarnin. The two of them are bobbing up and down like corks on the water. They are ducking, crouching, bending, and leaning a lot more than modern fighters. That's effective defense. Combine that with their deft footwork and head movement and I think they were fine.
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  14. janitor

    janitor VIP Member Full Member

    Feb 15, 2006
    Thanks for letting me know!
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  15. Richard M Murrieta

    Richard M Murrieta Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

    Jul 16, 2019
    That is why I refused to comment on this thread, always a smart aleck opens his trap on this very subject. Especially someone I have never met. No more Mr. Nice Guy here.
    Last edited: Aug 23, 2021