Has there been a better overall h2h bantamweight since '88-'94 Orlando Cañizales?

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by IntentionalButt, Feb 7, 2021.


  1. IntentionalButt

    IntentionalButt Guy wants to name his çock 'macho' that's ok by me

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    Yes, he's the sort of champ whose duration of reign is more impressive than his quality of competition - but all his defenses are filmed (and most are - or were at one time - uploaded somewhere or another online, IIRC), so neophytes can see for themselves how well-rounded and effective he was. For want of that one marquee victory to punch his ticket (I'd say the closest he came was late in his reign, dismantling then-unbeaten Clarence "Bones" Adams), he needed to rely on longevitry and consistency to provide him safe conduct into Canastota where he rightly belongs.

    Other than some passing familiarity with his name (often mentoined alongside his brother's) on the rolls of the modern HOF enshrined, many therefore probably don't quite know what to make of him, in retrospect. Where to place him, historically; who is he better than, all that. When you didn't live through an era to get a sense of context and don't recognize too many of a fighter's top opponents beaten, it can be a confounding (and - if you go strictly by any given individuals' subjectively biased lists, or even with the cold sterility of encyclopedic sources - sometimes misleading) process.

    To wit:

    BoxRec places him outside its top 450 all time p4p among his countrymen, which is bananas. He probably deserves to squeak into a top hundred Americans, if on the back end IMO. They also put him 34 on the global bantam all time list, which is again low, although not as egregiously. He's a good dozen spaces too low, there, at least.

    He's clearly among the 5 best Texans ever to lace up (behind only literal and figurative heavyweights Foreman & Johnson, and I'd argue the state's best welters as well in Cokes & Curry...but slightly afield the rest of the pack incl. the likes of Terry Norris, Lew Jenkins and both Ayalas). He is absent, however, from the relatievely new Texas Sports Hall of Fame - which nonetheless has Cokes, Jenkins, Foreman, and Johnson inducted.

    Redundant perhaps given the above point, but clearly to me as well the best in his family - although Gaby was, it bears mentioning, himself world class. He's also the one that years steeped in sentiment have probably caused older fans to remember more fondly, given that he was far more the gung-ho puncher among them (despite Orlando ultimately finishing his career with more stoppages, and the higher kayo %) but a good notch or two below in skill.

    Returning to my titular question (armed now with the knowledge that his placement if a bit wonky if you go by 'official' sources and requires some rolling up of the sleeves and watching of footage to decide for yourself) - has there been anyone in the dwarf chicken division to surpass him in the last 27 years? Since he vacated the division, a grand total of 55 men have worn big-four world title belts at 118 pounds with roughly a baker's dozen of them carrying on the legacy of his IBF strap. We're looking at:

    • Wayne McCullough
    • Sirimongkol Iamthum
    • Jōichirō Tatsuyoshi
    • Veeraphol Sahaprom
    • Hozumi Hasegawa
    • Fernando Montiel
    • Nonito Donaire
    • Shinsuke Yamanaka
    • Luis Nery
    • Nordine Oubaali
    • Nana Konadu
    • Daorung Chuvatana
    • Johnny Tapia
    • Paulie Ayala
    • Eidy Moya
    • Johnny Bredahl
    • Wladimir Sidorenko
    • Anselmo Moreno
    • Kōki Kameda
    • Jamie McDonnell
    • Juan Carlos Payano
    • Rau'Shee Warren
    • Zhanat Zhakiyanov
    • Ryan Burnett
    • Naoya Inoue
    • Guillermo Rigondeaux
    • Harold Mestre
    • Mbulel Botile
    • Tim Austin
    • Rafael Márquez
    • Luis Alberto Pérez
    • Joseph Agbeko
    • Yonnhy Pérez
    • Abner Mares
    • Léodegario Santa Cruz
    • Stuart Hall
    • Paul Butler
    • Randy Caballero
    • Lee Haskins
    • Emmanuel Rodríguez
    • Daniel Jiménez
    • Robbie Regan
    • Jorge Eliécer Julio Rocha
    • Mauricio Martínez
    • Cruz Carbajal
    • Chaiya Pothang
    • Jhonny González
    • Gerry Peñalosa
    • Jorge Arce
    • Panya Uthok
    • Paulus Ambunda
    • Tomoki Kameda
    • Marlon Tapales
    • Zolani Tete
    • Johnriel Casimero

    There are certainly a number there of whom I'm far more of a fan (with nostalgia playing no small part, as I watched many of their careers blossom; Cañizales fought during my childhood and particularly when he reigned I was prepubescent and not yet informed about or all that into the sport yet). There are guys there you could easily cherry pick out as being his superior in any single category you could name - power, speed, footwork, ring IQ, etc. A few in fact are quite a ways faster, stronger and more defensively sound (I'm not sure there's anybody with a meaner left hook, though). There are several with BW résumés that put his to shame.

    I'm not sure there's a more perfect machine at the weight, however - nor anybody that hands down should be favored over him without a lick of doubt. I'm leaning towards Inoue having the potential to do so, but we're in media res with his campaign, aren't we? 5-0 (4) at the weight and dominant over very good opposition, it remains early doors but the door is ajar. Whether he would have the class and stylistic edge to juggernaut through a Cañizales is a question that requires sitting with and digesting awhile (not to mention further watching of how things play out from here).

    Our very own @Sweet Pea (long booted, so not sure the site will even let me tag him) considered the jack-of-all-trades, master-of-none to be the greatest h2h specimen at bantam since prime Carlos Zárate. I think my gut agrees.
     
  2. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    Yes, he's brilliant and as complete as they come, you're right.

    But he's just too unproven for me. Did he meet a fighter better than Seabrooks? It may be that his second best opponent was Billy Hardy, and Billy gave Canizales a very hard time, a miserable time. Their first fight legitimately would not have been robbery if it had been scored against him for me, though I think he was the right man. Bit of a worry that.

    He looked good against Sergio Reyes; who on your list would not have though?

    Seventeen title defences and arguably never met a fighter among the division's best five. Hazegawa would have looked excellent against his opposition also I feel.
     
  3. George Crowcroft

    George Crowcroft He Who Saw The Deep Full Member

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    As a Sahaprom super-fan, I can't not put him forward. I'd pick him to beat Canizales, which may count, but I think they're probably on the same level of H2H prowess. Donaire, too. Inoue may be headed that way as well.

    You can't really mention Nonito and mention his papa, Rigoblin. Rigondeaux wasn't really a BW, but he wouldn't have a huge size advantage - if any - over some of the best BWs ever. He'd definitely be up there. Great power, skills and talent but a few clear weaknesses with the less-than-stellar chin, mediocre inside game, weakness to southpaws and

    Nana Konadu and Tapia have to be up there. Both great in their own ways, Especially if you take into consideration their super-flyweight incarnations like I have done Rigo's super-bantamweight.

    Essentially my answer is that a few guys are either slightly better, or on his level, nobody outright one ups him IMO.
     
  4. IntentionalButt

    IntentionalButt Guy wants to name his çock 'macho' that's ok by me

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    But of what there is for us to examine, vis-a-vis the LOC being a cumulative B- at best, yes - what marks do you give him on eye test versus the rest up there? I like Hasegawa more, to say nothing of Rafa Márquez, Gerry Peñalosa, El Raton González, and of course my homeboy Mi Vida Loca; in a time machine would root for all of them against him - but were any of their kits fuller? Single attributes, sure, many trump Cañizales here and there. But altogether?
     
  5. George Crowcroft

    George Crowcroft He Who Saw The Deep Full Member

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    But McGrain definitely has a point.

    ****ing absymal, almost depressing opposition in his prime.

    His fights, even losses, at 122 is honestly a truer representation of him IMO, in the fight on even terms (although I had him clearly winning) vs Vazquez.
     
  6. IntentionalButt

    IntentionalButt Guy wants to name his çock 'macho' that's ok by me

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    Oh at super, I'm not sure he's even better than my dude Izzy (speaking of Vázquezes) - and I'd say at 122lbs even his vaunted left hook was 2nd fiddle to Magnifico's. :thumbsup:
     
  7. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    Ahhhh, yeah you're right but think of the biggest disappointment in your time as a fan and how great that guy looked on the way up. Canizales all but spent his whole career on the way up.

    He looks excellent but against that level of opposition, I think most of those guys will look similar class in their way, which is not to say quite as special overall, but nearly.

    I'm sort of saying I don't know I suppose.
     
  8. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    No it is depressing, legitimately depressing. He's the most depressing. Maybe the most depressing of all the alphabet victims.
     
  9. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    He'd ****ing murder Koki though :lol:
     
  10. IntentionalButt

    IntentionalButt Guy wants to name his çock 'macho' that's ok by me

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    :deal:

    I dare say El Travieso would after a few rounds be begging to return to 115 and be thrown in with Mijares again, too. :sisi1 Same schooling, but more painful.
     
  11. George Crowcroft

    George Crowcroft He Who Saw The Deep Full Member

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    I think that the version who fought Wilfredo would beat up Izzy.
     
  12. eltirado

    eltirado Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Oralndo Canizales lost his first fight at Flyweight (revenged at Bantam although with some luck TKO on cuts)

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    With Zarate it was a size/power advantage

    Marco Antonio Barrera was a 30-0-0 world ranked Bantamweight
     
  13. IntentionalButt

    IntentionalButt Guy wants to name his çock 'macho' that's ok by me

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    I'm the biggest MAB fanboy you'll ever find, but he's a nonentity at 118. He barely ever had so much as a cuppa coffee there (maybe half a dozen low level fights?) and besides, while he was already a good fighter at 30-0 and a very good one at 43-0 when he ran afoul Junior Jones (whom a past prime Cañizales held to a SD, no less) he didn't become great until feather.


    And yeah, Zárate vs. Inoue is a fairer fight if we're talking strictly firepower, as both have Cañizales routed there.
     
  14. George Crowcroft

    George Crowcroft He Who Saw The Deep Full Member

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    I've never done a top 100 Americans, and never will, but I have done a top 150 P4P, most of which are inevitably American. I'd say there's at least 85 on there - maybe more - and he wasn't anywhere close to making the list. I'd say that's too high for him. He wouldn't be a top 20 BW for me, despite the title defence count. Top poor opposition.
    I don't think this is outlandish, although I do think it being by some distance is.

    I wonder if @Bujia still thinks so?
     
  15. George Crowcroft

    George Crowcroft He Who Saw The Deep Full Member

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    I thought it was a very clean win for Jones. 9-3ish. SD is flattering IMO.
     
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