Has there ever been a more destructive puncher than Terry McGovern at his weight?

janitor · Aug 21, 2010

mcvey said: ↑

have a look at Palmer's record, pre McGovern,apart from a draw with Dixon see anything special there?

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Contemporary opinion about the Palmer McGovern bout. It is worth noting three points.

1. Interest in this bout was greater than for any preivious bout in the lower weight classes.
2. Palmer is considered verry strong on resume.
3. Oscar Gardner is held in verry high regard and is seen as the next challenger for the winner (I mention this because he is another McGovern KO victim and contemporary sources always speak highly of him).

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Earlier when the match was signed this article was written.

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janitor · Aug 21, 2010

Events the day before the fight:
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mcvey · Aug 21, 2010

janitor said: ↑

Palmer was considered to be the defensive marvel of his era. The McGovern fight is the only reason why he is not talked about in the same breath as Yong Griffo today.

The perception in the press before the Palmer McGovern bout was that Palmer was verry strong on depth of opposition, and that this might be the deciding factor.

Do you think that Erne took a dive in this fight?

I can see no reason for thinking that personaly.

I think that you are using what I call "bum of the gaps logic here", where any gap in the historical record is assumed to be filled by nothing. In reality, Dixons early oponents having relativley complete surviving records is not only improbable but highly unlikley.

Between McGoverns prime and Dixons prime, there is a sort of precipice, beyong which records of fights in the lower weight classes almost evapourate.

I strongly suspect that Gans McGovern was a tank job but that dosnt mean that we should make the same assumption about any of his other fights.

By that logic you would say that Jake Lamotta might have thrown all his fights against Sugar Ray Robinson because he is known to have thrown the Fox fight.

More a case of Tyson skiping Douglkas and running straight into his Holyfield.

I dont know, but he was probably a better finisher than any of them.
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Whenever I mention the dearth of quality on a fighters record you say AHH ! But we dont know how many quality wins he had that might have gone unrecorded.
Equally we don't know how many devastating losses he might have had that also went unrecorded.
So given this ,lets stick to what we DO KNOW.
Palmers record before losing to McGovern was built up on mostly non entitities.

One of the best men he fought Joe Bowker, gave him a comprehensive hiding, before stopping him.

Among others,
Palmer was kod by
2-5-2 Darkey Haley
3-6-1 Cockney Cohen
Cohen 4-8-1 drew with him
Ben Jordan 15-1-0 outpointed him
Palmer beat Walter Croot by 17rd tko but Croot was 2-1-0
Croot would later die at the hands of Jimmy Barry.
Palmers best result was against a sliding 33 year old Dixon.
I dont see much merit in Terry banging over the harmlessly clever Palmer when novices acheived the same result.
Palmer could not carry Griffo's bag.

I contend that Dixon has lots of padding on his record, and ,that Erne's record is somewhat dubious.
McGovern was a great Feather /Bantam , I agree, extremely aggressive a volume puncher, possibly like Wilde ,but the hardest hitter of the feathers?

Harder than Hamed,Lopez,Saddler,Arguello?

The hardest hitter of the bantams?
Harder than Olivares,Zarate,Brown,Jofre?
I don't think so.
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McGrain · Aug 21, 2010

Erne's record is dubious? Wtf? He mopped up one of the most competitve sharp-end eras in all of lightweight boxing. If his record is dubious, Dempsey's is downright spastic.

janitor · Aug 21, 2010

mcvey said: ↑

janitor said: ↑

Whenever I mention the dearth of quality on a fighters record you say AHH ! But we dont know how many quality wins he had that might have gone unrecorded.
Equally we don't know how many devastating losses he might have had the also went unrecorded.

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What you then do is go to the primary sources and look at how highly regarded the fighters were and what their level of experience was judged to be by contemporary observers.

So given this ,lets stick to what we DO KNOW.
Palmers record before losing to McGovern was built up on mostly non entitities.

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One of the "non entities" you mention is Walter Croot, who was regarded by the contemporary press as being one of the best figfhters in the world of his weight class. Jimmy Barry fought Croot precisely because he thought that a win over Croot would lead to general aceptence of his world title claim.

Palmers best result was against a sliding 33 year old Dixon.

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That would have been considerd quite a result at the time.

I dont see much merit in Terry banging over the harmlessly clever Palmer when novices acheived the same result.

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People at the time obviously did, because the fight generatied more interst and grossed more, than any previous fight outside the heavyweight division.

Palmer could not carry Griffo's bag.

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Hindsight is a wonderfull thing.

I contend that Dixon has lots of padding on his record, and ,that Erne's record is somewhat dubious.

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Your first point is wrong and your second irrelevant.

McGovern was a great Feather /Bantam , I agree, extremely aggressive a volume puncher, possibly like Wilde ,but the hardest hitter of the feathers?

Harder than Hamed,Lopez,Saddler,Arguello?

The hardest hitter of the bantams?
Harder than Olivares,Zarate,Brown,Jofre?
I don't think so.

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I don't know whether he hit harder than those guys but I think he was probably a better finisher than any of them. This guy is the Joe Louis or the Mike Tyson of the bantems.
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TheGreatA · Aug 21, 2010

McGovern was a brutal puncher although one may argue that to some extent he took "advantage" of other fighters conserving themselves for the 20+ round distance while McGovern himself would go all out in the early rounds. He was one of the first early round knockout artists along with Sullivan and later Dempsey. Obviously he had some pro-longed battles as well but the Corbett series may have proven that McGovern left himself vulnerable while rushing in for the "kill" (in the first fight) and perhaps lacked staying power (in the second fight).

Surf-Bat · Aug 21, 2010

Harlem Tommy Murphy, Aurelio Herrera, Harry Forbes, Tim Callahan...all top fighters who had never been stopped before...until they met Terry McGovern. Murphy, Callahan and Herrera were especially rugged and durable. All tough nuts to crack. But they cracked under Terry's ruthless assault.

Austin Rice, Casper Leon, Eddie Santry, Oscar Gardner, Tommy White, Dave Sullivan....all were top men and all fell before McGovern. Knockout streaks like McGovern's were rare for the era and the press was in awe of how they all fell like card houses as Terry tore through the ranks of several divisions.

janitor · Aug 21, 2010

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janitor · Aug 21, 2010

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GPater11093 · Aug 21, 2010

Excellant stuff Janitor.

janitor · Aug 21, 2010

GPater11093 said: ↑

Excellant stuff Janitor.
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McGovern is one fighter who certainly needs a good well researched biography.

It could realy open his career up.

GPater11093 · Aug 21, 2010

McGovern is one guy, I think would be like Fitz onc eyou research him your opinion would go throw the roof of him.

mcvey · Aug 23, 2010

janitor said: ↑

mcvey said: ↑

What you then do is go to the primary sources and look at how highly regarded the fighters were and what their level of experience was judged to be by contemporary observers.

One of the "non entities" you mention is Walter Croot, who was regarded by the contemporary press as being one of the best figfhters in the world of his weight class. Jimmy Barry fought Croot precisely because he thought that a win over Croot would lead to general aceptence of his world title claim.

That would have been considerd quite a result at the time.

People at the time obviously did, because the fight generatied more interst and grossed more, than any previous fight outside the heavyweight division.

Hindsight is a wonderfull thing.

Your first point is wrong and your second irrelevant.

I don't know whether he hit harder than those guys but I think he was probably a better finisher than any of them. This guy is the Joe Louis or the Mike Tyson of the bantems.
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Thanks for taking the trouble to post such detailed replies.
I do not profess to be an expert on Dixon ,but my understanding of him was that he was a high liver and dissipated himself,by the time he fought McGovern he was sliding badly.
He had further 61 fights, but only won 11 of them that tells a story to me.
I named Walter Croot, so I obviously did not include him among the non -entities.

At the time Croot fought Palmer, Croot had 4 recorded fights, of which he had won 3, and been kod in the other by 1-0-0 Joe Bennett.

If you have further victories for Croot , at that time , I would like to see them.

Hindsight has nothing to do with my rating Griffo above Palmer, it was a response to you saying Palmer may have been his equal.

I said Dixon had a lot of padding on his record and he does, so how is my point wrong?

Billy Ryan 1-3-5
Monk The Newsboy 3-3-3 lost
Dick Nelson -0 draw
Jack Voy 0-1-0 draw
Johnny Hughes 8-4-0 draw
Tommy Burns-0 lost
George moore -0 draw
Cockney Cohen 0-1-1
"" "" 0-1-0
" " 0-3-1 lost
Charles Lampey -0-draw
Harry Ware -0
George Phalin-0-1-1 draw
" " 01-0 draw
Fred Delaney 1-0-4 lost
Jimmy Dunn 0-0-1

And at least 30 more, or, were they all over looked ATG's?
I pointed out Erne was in a fixed fight and pondered whether he was in others, irrelevant?
George Dixon lost to as many top fighters as he beat ,and by the time he was in his early 30's he was nearly done as a top fighter.
Dixon beat Erne ,Gardner,Bernstein, but he also lost to Erne, and drew with him.
Some of the better names who beat Dixon.
Harlem Tommy Murphy 7-0 - 2 kod him in 2rds
Owen Moran dec
Spike Robson 2-0-1 dec
Digger Stanley 5-3-1 dec
Jim Driscoll kod him and dec'd him
Abe Attell 12-0-3 dec
Billy Plimmer 1-1-12 dec

McGovern got to him first.

You asked whether there has ever been a more destructive puncher than McGovern at Feather, and Bantam ?
I named 4 in each division, I think were on a par with him, isn't that what you wanted when you started the thread?

You then moved the goal posts/changed the criteria, by saying-----

" I don't know if he hit harder than those guys ,but I think he was probably a better finisher than all of them "

But that's not what your thread stated is it?

Terry McGovern 60 wins 44 kos 55%

Naseem Hamed 36 wins 31 kos 83.78%
Ruben Olivares 88 wins 77 kos 74.04%
Carlos Zarate 66 wins 63 kos 90%
Sandy Saddler 144 wins 103 kos 63.58%
Eder Jofre 72 wins 50 kos 64.1%
Alexis Arguello 82 wins 65 kos 72.22%
Danny Lopez 42 wins 39 kos 81.25%

[I removed Brown I don't think he sits well with this bunch].

McGovern belongs in their company, but not above them, imo.
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anarci · Aug 23, 2010

lefthook31 said: ↑

Tim Austin at bantam
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Do you really think he hit harder than Olivares,Zarate,Zamora? Hell i think Rafa Marquez probably hit harder.

lefthook31 · Aug 23, 2010

anarci said: ↑

Do you really think he hit harder than Olivares,Zarate,Zamora? Hell i think Rafa Marquez probably hit harder.
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Why because he beat him once he was washed up?

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