Has time been unkind to Smokin' Joe?

He won the second one, so I don't imagine Folley was looking too good there.

Those guys may have beaten Bonavena, but did they look good?

My statement that no one looked good against Bonavena obviously implies that I didn't think Ali looked good against him. However, Ali's result against Bonavena wass outstanding, since the likes of Frazier, Lyle, Martin, Patterson, etc. failed to produce even one stoppage win between them against him.

Frazier also stopped Quarry on cuts. Stopping an opponent on cuts from punches is a perfectly legitimate means of winning a fight. It also generally means you're punching effectively. Ali stopped Quarry earlier than anyone else ever did. In fact, as I said before, Ali's results against both Bonavena and Quarry were the best results that anyone ever registered against either of them.

 

I think both Folley and Ellis dropped Bonavena ,so maybe they didnt look too bad,Folley gave him a boxing lesson .Zora was 36 when he lost the second fight by dec ,which was in Buenos Aires,Frazier stopped Quarry on cuts yes ,but he beat him up as well ,Ali didnt ,and after the Quarry fight Ali said he was gassing out.Ali stopped Bonavena but up till the ko didnt look impressive ,Folley in the first fight with Oscar won easily.I dont think Ellis had much trouble with him either.

 

I think Ali more or less was as close to his prime in FOTC as Tyson was when he took on Holyfield. There's no compelling reason to think otherwise. So, Marciano Frazier, do you think Tyson was in his prime when meating Holyfield?

 

There's no compelling reason to think it's so. In fact, the differences between these scenarios far outnumber the superficial similarities (former champ who came back about a year ago from a legal hiatus loses to another champ).
Tyson had not beaten any elite fighters since returning from jail time, and in fact, would never beat an elite fighter again. Tyson lost every single major and career-defining fight he had after his jail-sentence. All of his greatest wins and elite accomplishments happened in the late '80s through early '90s.
Ali, on the other hand, had just beaten two elite contenders in his last two fights with highly-impressive outcomes and would go on to beat numerous more- in fact, most of Ali's greatest wins and career-defining accomplishments were still ahead of him when he first fought Frazier.

Since you didn't even come close to establishing the first premise (that Ali was about as close to his prime against Frazier as Tyson was against Holyfield), and, in fact, that premise is evidently false, then this follow-up is obviously irrelevant.

 

Not a fan of Frazier's style. The forward "bobbing and weaving" has never grasped with myself. His variety of offense and defense wasn't as varied as someone like Duran, although he's a much smaller specimen.

Frazier's left hook to the body and head must be respected among historians. It was certainly his most potent weapon. Ali would gladly testify, as would Ellis among others.

His reign was brief and he never regained the title. And apart from his FOTC against Ali he doesn't have many other "elite" heavyweight scalps on his record.

 

Frazier is linked with Ali, and as such, history is not unkind to him at all.

Frazier's body of work is quality, but his resume outside of Ali has some holes in it. Frazier did not enter the WBA tournament. The other fighters did. Frazier did not win back his title, and seemed to miss out on quite a few big fights ( Norton, Lyle, Shavers, Martin, Young ) that could have enhanced his resume.

Frazier is 1-4 vs Ali and Foreman with three TKO losses. This does not enhance his resume. You’d have to assume any all time great in the top 10 could at least match the 1-4 record vs Foreman and Ali, or do a bit better.

 

Ali did better in his second career because he had more overall quality. He could win even if his plan A didn't work, like he did against Foreman. Therefore he coped better with having somewhat diminished physical assets than Tyson did.

And Tyson did look impressive against the likes of Bruno, Golota and Stewart, so his comeback wasn't all that bad. Except for the losses to Holyfield, the rest of them came when he was 35+ years old. Ali also had three loses when he was 35+.

Tyson had kept in shape in prison and had been back to boxing and training regulary for 1,5 years before he met Holyfield. Ali hadn't even been training regulary for one year when he met Frazier. So I don't see why Ali should have regained more than Tyson.

Also Marciano Frazier, if Ali had fully regained his legs and his conditioning, then why did he move so little against Bonavena and Frazier? He moved well in the opening round against Quarry, but said himself that he soon gassed out.

 

Unfortunately, Ali's popularity sees to it that 95% of the time, Frazier's losses when he was past his best against Ali and Foreman are replayed, while the fight in which both fighters were much better, Ali vs Frazier I, seems to almost have been boycotted. Such a shame, i think this is the best fight in the entire filmed heavyweight history.

 

I agree FOTC is a totally fascinating and one of the most exciting fights but the fact remains that guys like Jimmy Ellis took Bonavena to school and he wasn't in Ali's league pre-exile. Bonavena had 5 losses or so going in to his fight with Ali. Ali had no losses but nearly lost the fight. It doesn't take a genius to work things out and watch the fight to know how bad Ali was in the mid to late rounds. His footwork is non-existant - Cossell can't believe it's Ali fighting as he's so stationary and getting hit so much. Pre-exile Ali was footwork, footwork, footwork........

 

1-4 against Ali and Foreman is better than 2-2 against McCall and Rahman, IMO.

 

Agreed.

 

I think Ali was similarly past his best against Frazier (probably MORE past his best) than Tyson was against Holyfield.

(I actualy think Holyfield was at least as far removed from his best as Tyson was too)

Tyson DID actually beat Bruno very impressively in 1996, although Bruno's effort was crap. Still, no denying Tyson's movement and punching was good. Bruno at the time was rated highly, just come off a win over Oliver McCall which was better than Lewis had done.

Ali was probably further from his best, but he was no worse than he was later on against Foreman.

Only die-hard Ali supporters (who take everything Dundee and Pacheco say as gospel) really go in for that "Ali improved between '71 and '74" stuff.

Ali past his best beat Foreman. Frazier beat that same Ali (a slightly younger version).
And Ali was miles better than Tyson.

 

You have to admit that he moved more in 74 than he did in 71, though. Don't you think that had to do with improved stamina?

I would have to say that the Ali of FOTC was about level with the Ali in Manilla and the difference in outcome is mostly due to Frazier not being quite the same. Ali in 74 is the best version of the three IMO, but I am a die-hard Ali fan, so... It is hard to deny though that this is the only fight against Frazier that he moves in any way similar to how he moved in the 60's.

Without ever mentionening the fights against Frazier, Ali says in his biography that it wasn't until his second fight with Quarry that he regained his stamina.

 

Smokin' Joe has recently auctioned of his 'Thrilla in Manila' robe and other mementos from his legendary career. I heard that he is experiencing some hard times financially and health wise. I hope everything works out for him.

 

No, I think he was trying to knock Frazier out in '71. And Joe was so quick on his feet and with his hands that Ali couldn't really out-move him much either. After a few rounds if Ali wanted to switch strategy he was so worn by body punches and Joe would just dig another one in and stop Ali in his tracks.

In '74 Frazier was slower and Ali was smarter.

Yes, his tactics, dancing and grabbing, were effective.
But a '71 Frazier looked a lot quicker and in '74 he had a little more trouble closing the gap (though when he did Ali would just neck hold him so that's a major factor too)

In Manila Ali tried knocking Frazier out again, and Padilla didn't allow much neck-holding.

That second Quarry fight went less than 7 rounds, and Ali didn't dance all through. And Quarry was never much effort for Ali.

Ali-Frazier 1 was actually one of Ali's most gruelling and fast-paced 15 rounders. He boasted about how many punches he threw and I cant think of any 15 round fight at heavyweight that demonstrated more stamina - for both men. It's up there with Marciano-Charles 1.

Ali might have moved less, due to his own strategy, his slight loss of youth, and Frazier's punches, but he punched more than ever and he took more punches than ever.
ALI'S stamina was amazing. But Frazier's stamina was MORE amazing.