Has time been unkind to Smokin' Joe?

I think the defeat to Foreman is the thing that hurts Joe's legacy the most. No other ATG ever got blown out of the water like that when still close to his prime. But personally I think Frazier was great. He had great perfomances against Chuvalo, Ellis, Quarry and of course Ali. If he had been active in a slightly less competitive era he probably would have been in most peoples top 5.

I can't see any of Louis's or Marciano's opponents causing Frazier too much trouble.

 

Yes time has certainly been unfair and unkind to Joe Frazier. How many great fighters of the past can you name that have had their GREATEST SINGLE FIGHT... THEIR GREATEST SINGLE MOMENT... taken away and locked up in a vault somewhere, NEVER to be seen as evidence of their greatest moment? If Joe Frazier is bitter and can't let go of his hatred of Ali, can you really blame him? The 1971 FIGHT OF THE CENTURY NEVER GET'S SHOWN, on any of the quadzillion different cable channels, whereas the 3rd fight, of course, gets almost continual airplay, shown again and again and again, and even the second fight gets some play, but never, ever, ever, ever the FOTC, which would surely, for those who have forgotten, and are not just mind-numbed Ali-bots and nuthuggers be a reminder that Joe Frazier was the clear, hardfought winner of that fight, and had his supreme moment in the sun. Can you imagine any other fighter getting this treatment, of having their greatest moment as a fighter censored so completely? Yeah, I'd say history, and all the Ali worshippers and the media powers that be, in their efforts to make a cult of Muhammad Ali have been pretty unkind to Joe Frazier.

 

Fraziers standing is hurt by his unadaptability. He fought 1 fighter who was a big puncher with a great offense and got blown away twice. This was the only Super HW he faced too.

This fact makes many pick big punching HWs over him, he hasn't shown he can beat this type of fighter and hence his lower ranking

 

Well the first fight is not hard to find, but the first fight does get aired ONCE in a blue moon, about 3 years ago they aired it.

 

I agree. To say that he gets ranked low because so few people have seen FOTC is just short of bizarre. Is there a single boxing fan who hasn't seen FOTC at least once?

I'm a big Ali fan, and I've seen it a lots of times and think it's a great fight. I have a hard time watching Ali's other losses because he is so crap in them, but that's not the case in FOTC. He just met a great opponent and didn't quite have the legs to stay away from him.

There are very few fighters I would favour against the FOTC version of Frazier.

 

I seen the fight, its a great fight. Frazier was ear his peak, I do think a few other greats could have taking that Frazier, but not many.

Foreman of couse.
Louis perhaps has the power to keep Joe off of him, which Ali lack. I think the ripping uppercuts, and short crosses would be the key for the win for Louis.

Marciano and Dempsey would be a war, 50 50 either way imo.

I dont see David Tua or Grant or Butterbean beating Frazier. The Kilt brothers may find Frazier easy to handle early in the fight, but they be gas out and Frazier would be all over them like a tiger.

Lewis would be defeated also imo.

 

No time has actually been kind to Joe ,imo,one win over an ATG elevated him to the super strata he never reached those heights again.

 

In mainstream culture, Frazier is sold terribly short. This tremendous fighter is almost completely unknown, and, to add insult to injury, a fictional boxer from his own hometown becomes a beloved idol worldwide. This is very important, if only financially, as Frazier cannot hope to milk his championship like, say, Ali has. Too bad. Personality goes a long way. If Frazier couldn't get the admiration he so richly deserved after FOTC, then he would never get it.

At least true fans will forever respect and admire this genuine titan of the ring. I never tire of pointing out his qualities. I have never seen more heart in a fighter than Smokin' Joe's. Though not particularly blessed physically for a heavyweight, he more than made up for it in pure desire, perseverance, honing of crunching power punching, and conditioning. He beat Muhammad Ali! He beat Ali! Fair and square. On the world stage.

To top it off, Frazier was a decent man as champion and throughout his career, always well-spoken and courteous, looking to do his talking in the ring.

This small man fares very well in all-time head-to-head matchups, against anyone you care to throw in with him. In fact, I favor him over greats such as Holmes and Marciano. Over a championship distance, he threw more wicked leather than Mike Tyson. His scarce height forced him to tread a perilous path with his no-nonsense, always-coming-in style, but he did it gallantly.

Watch Joe Frazier in his prime and see what boxing is all about.

 

Great post.

 

Nice post mate, excellent. I agree Joe is getting sold short as the years slip by.

 

Another ID Legend. Jeez ya go thru em.

 

Now dont go blaming the Rocky movies for Frazier's underated or problems.
There are lots of things for fiction in honor. I mean take Kansas, The Wizard of Oz, is well EVEY were. I cant cross a street or go in a store with out the Wizard of Oz being show or a bill board or the Wizard of Oz on Ice.Rocky became loved world wide, because it was a good movie. Dont blame Rocky for Frazier's ill will.

I mean next we going to blame "Gone with the Wind" for Jack Johnson being less known or something.

 

I generally rate Joe as my number four all time heavyweight. The notion that he was only a left hooker should have been torpedoed by his winning Olympic Gold with a broken left thumb, and the way he ripped open Jerry Quarry's face with a long straight right in their rematch.

Forget the notion that Frazier couldn't handle superheavyweights by citing the example of Foreman. George is an absolute genetic freak of nature, and one of the most physically powerful top heavyweights who has ever lived, but he only outweighed Joe by three pounds in Kingston, while Frazier actually outweighed Foreman by a half pound in their rematch. George was NOT the biggest heavyweight Joe ever fought. Don Smith, Manuel Ramos, Buster Mathis and Joe Bugner provide plenty of visual examples of how effective Smoke could be with modern sized superheavyweights. (All of them hit the deck, Bugner from a hook to the body.)

His 1980 draw with Jumbo Cummings involved his standing up to a very physically powerful bodybuilding opponent. Cummings was regarded as a competent heavyweight at that time, had a couple of late round knockout wins, and had only been beaten by Snipes over the ten round distance. After drawing with Joe, Cummings never won again. (In subsequent fights, Larry Frazier and Witherspoon couldn't take Cummings out either, so Joe was in good company. Yes, Smoke did get a gift draw against Cummings, but he was coming off a five and a half year layoff facing an until then rising contender who could hardly be described as a tomato can.)

Joe did considerably better in his rematch with Foreman than many others during George's first career, despite being over five years past his peak. Frazier got into round five against Foreman, better than Norton, Wepner, LeDoux, Denis (who was then undefeated), and Roman were able to manage. If Joe had remained on his feet through two or three more rounds, who knows what might have happened as round 12 crept closer? Foreman/Frazier II wasn't exactly Liston/Patterson II, was it?

Sure, I think time has been unkind to Joe, but this was accurately predicted immediately after his win in the FOTC by Phil Pepe. In Pepe's 1972 biography of Frazier, he flatly concluded in the penultimate paragraph that, "Fight again or not, beat Ali again or not, Joe Frazier would never stand with the great champions of all time. He would never have the appeal fo a Jack Dempsey or a Muhammad Ali. He would never become the second Joe Louis in public acceptance." Whatever one thinks of Pepe's hastily published book, Come Out Smokin', he pretty much nailed this anticipation directly on the head, at the very precise moment Frazier was at his absolute zenith.

However, the final paragraph Pepe wrote was the most important. "But he worked hard and he provided well so that his children would have a better life than he did. And he became one of only twenty-four men in modern boxing to hold the heavyweight championship of the world. That is one thing they could never take away from him. That's all Joe Frazier ever really wanted."

Footage of his greatest performances not involving an opponent named Ali are surfacing on-line more and more. Fans can better judge his quality for themselves, rather than simply rely on crappy reporting. His generalship is on display in the Quarry rematch. The tall Ramos fought very intelligently, utilizing an uppercut strategy one might expect to be perfect for beating Joe. But only the superhuman physical strength of a Foreman was able to make that work.

Ron Stander also tried using his physical strength to muscle Frazier around, and had a little more success than Rex Layne had with Marciano. Frazier thwarted Big Ron with his underrated mobility. Stander did not enjoy Foreman's height and reach advantages.

Could Foreman's best have beaten Frazier on March 8, 1971? George certainly would have had Joe in early trouble, but so did many of Joe's opponents who failed to beat him. Logically, Foreman would have always had Joe's number, but logic does not take into account heart and desire.