Has time been unkind to Smokin' Joe?

Because it came out of Sly's money. Philadelphia didnt pay for that statue. Rocky III did.

 

Frazier put Bugner down with a left hook to the jaw.

 

p.s. Frazier of 1970 (his real peak) survives early Foreman onslaught and takes him out in 9 or 10.

 

Excellent post.

 

That's a distinct possibility.

Frazier was way out of shape in Jamaica in 1973. He just came in fat and walked straight into Foreman.

The 1976 rematch showed how Frazier was a superior boxer(the way he could slip most of Foreman's shots - Frazier's very underrated as a defensively skilled fighter ) but he was finished by then, about 225 pounds, effectively blind in one eye, and only had a few rounds in him. Unrecognizable from his prime.

The Frazier of 1970 was a long way better than both versions.

 

Frazier wasn't exactly facing the same version of Foreman either. His cloak of invincibility had been lifted and he'd struggled like hell in his fight right before Frazier. 2 of your other examples also faced post Ali Foreman, and i can't remember Wepner fighting him at all :huh

It wasn't exactly Liston/Patterson II for sure, that fight occurred immediately after their first bout while Foreman and Frazier fought 3 1/2 years later which included George's shattering defeat to Ali. I have little doubt George would have dished out the same treatment if the rematch had been immediate.

 

I think Foreman was still an awesome force post-Ali. He had trouble with Ron Lyle because Lyle was a damned good fighter and Foreman had only fought some gimmicky exhibitions over the previous 14 months. Lyle exploited weaknesses in Foreman that were apparent BEFORE Foreman fought Ali. Foreman would have NEVER walked through Ron Lyle, Lyle was a good boxer and a good puncher and as big and strong as George.

Frazier knew after the first fight with Foreman that he'd adopted a bad strategy, he'd shown Foreman no respect, he'd used hardly any defense, he'd. not trained hard enough, and he got beat down.

I think the 2nd Frazier-Foreman fight shows how Frazier at his peak would certainly not necessarily be over-matched versus Foreman. Frazier was about 50% of what he had been, and it's nonsense to suggest Foreman was similarly down-graded.

 

Noway. Excepting Lyle Foreman never beat another top fighter post Ali (until the comeback) excepting a Frazier you consider shot. He had definitely lost something. On top of that others now had much more confidence going in.

That's your opinion, but i certainly wouldn't cast it in stone.

Bad strategy? Last time i watched Frazier only had one. Foreman just blew him out of the water, too powerful and strong with Frazier just made to order. Fraziers vaunted left hook raised barely an eyebrow. Goerge made it look as easy as taking corn off a blind cocky. I have no reason to think any version of Frazier could seriously trouble that Foreman. I see these hypotheticals, if Joe did this, if Joe did that, if Foreman did this but at the end of the day it's very hopeful thinking.

Nobody said Foreman was similarly downgraded but if you think it was the same Foreman as the first fight you're just having a laff.

 

I agree with those who say that Frazier was slipping by the time he fought Foreman in 1973, but I still can't see any version of Joe beating Goerge. The styles are simply all wrong here. Foreman had the right blueprint for beating up swarmers who lowered their center of gravity and who were generally shorter. Joe would have gotten nailed with those uppercuts and hooks everytime. I can't see Frazier weathering the storm for the 10 or 12 rounds that it would take to beat Foreman.

 

Pre-Ali Foreman hardly ever beat a top fighter either. He's got a win over Frazier in Jamaica, and a win over Chuvalo (a lower top-10 guy, who was just starting to hit back when stopped) and Norton (who you tell me froze up against punchers per se).

You're better off sticking to the Foreman-beats-Frazier-any-time line than making reference to other top fighters he beat, and when he beat them. His real accomplishment was beating Frazier.

You can argue that other fighters had more confidence going against Foreman, but does that apply to a badass like Ron Lyle ? Would Lyle ever have been intimidated by Foreman ? I seriously doubt it.

(Anyway, as it applies to Frazier I would say OVER-confidence was part of his downfall in the 1st fight)

Also, I would also say that Foreman's "aura of invincibility" lasted for all of TWO fights. Prior to him beating Frazier, he was considered a powerful but untested and inexperienced fighter. He had done nothing in the top flight to really intimidate any of the leading fighters.

Fair enough.
I think Frazier had nuances to his style and ring generalship that's he's rarely given credit for.
His lack of speed of head movement and his lack of any sort of lateral movement in the first Frazier fight is apparent, he plods in flat-footed. I've seen much better from Frazier.

I dont always take a one-sided match as evidence that those two fighters would always produce same result. I think Lloyd Honeyghan at his best doesn't necessarily gets destroyed by Mark Breland. In fact I think a peak Honeyghan might have beaten Breland. Yes, that's hypothetical. And I'm all for completely disallowing hypotheticals (though I've tried and I realized ESB classic tends to talk about nothing but hypotheticals).

Disallowing hypotheticals goes for all talk of a peak Frazier beating Foreman AND for all talk of Foreman beating a peak Frazier, or repeating the first fight in "immediate rematch".

Physically he was a bit bigger and stronger, IMO.

Some say stylistically he wasn't as good but I dont really agree. I dont think technical changes in Foreman ruined him at all.

Most of the "difference" is really based on psycho-babble talk of his "mentality" and confidence, which isn't easy to assess but may well have some merit. I dont think Foreman was particularly nervous or lacking in confidence going against Frazier a 2nd time though.

Personally I like the performance from Foreman in the Frazier rematch.

 

None of the so called super heavies you mentioned could hit anywhere near as hard as Foreman

 

I'll say it once and I'll say it again. Joe Frazier 1967 - 1971, just prior to the fight of the century was one of the GOAT heavyweights.

If one were to replace Ali in the FOTC with Foreman as Joe's opponent, the immediate conclusion is that Joe gets his butt whupped by George every time. All this is based on one performance in 1973?

I seriously can't see how Foreman would have KO'd the 203 lb - 208 lb Frazier. In fact, I don't think Foreman makes it past the 10th round against FOTC Joe Frazier. Much is made about how slow a starter Frazier is during the early rounds. Well, compared to the hand and foot speed of Ali, quite a few heavyweights are pretty slow. Ali himself said Frazier was the roughest and toughest fighter he ever faced and he had trouble hitting him cleanly in the FOTC.

I'll put my money on Joe Frazier, 1967 - 1971 against every heavyweight in history. Three fighters, Ali, Holmes, and Holyfield could potentially last the distance with this version of Frazier but end up losing unanimous decisions.
Foreman, Liston and Tyson are the only fighters that have any chance of knocking out a prime Frazier. There's no denying the power of these three fighters and they could have Frazier on the canvas early in the fight.
Everyone else gets knocked out inside the distance.

 

Louis could definitely knock him out. I'm not saying he would have, but it would always be a real possibility.

 

It might well have taken 10 or 12 rounds for prime Joe to topple Foreman, but I think the real danger zone for Joe would be half that, maybe 5 rounds. After 5 to 6 rounds had passed, and the body punching of Joe took effect, Foreman's heart, spirit and resolve would have withered along with his lethal punch.