Has time been unkind to Smokin' Joe?

Based on what exactly? Foreman gassed out in two fights ,there was nothing wrong with his heart or spirit ,and he proved there was nothing wrong with his resolve by absorbing all Moorers punches and coming back to ko him ,showing his lethal punch hadnt withered,late in the fight.

 

I don't think a peak Frazier would survive Foreman, but if he makes it into the 6th with his head still attached, things look good for him.

How often did the 70's Foreman have succes past the 6th? Ali stopped him, against Young he got knocked down although he did stagger Young in the 9th. But Frazier is no Young or Ali. If he's still there late, he won't allow Foreman to take a break or a breather, while that was possible against the former mentioned fighters who weren't as aggressive. What he did against Moorer is admirable, but he was a completely different fighter then: i don't think that proves that the 70's version of him had good stamina.

 

He did stop peralta in rematch in the 10th round

 

He stop, but not ko.

 

Well considering 90% of fighters through history wouldnt make it to the 5th round against him, is stamina that big a deal?

 

If he had good stamina ,he wouldnt have gassed out ,would he!
I was questioning the attacks on his spirit ,resolve and heart. I agree if Joe makes it past the halfway mark his chances get better by the minute ,but I dont see that happening myself.

 

Well, for those 10% it is, yes.

And i wouldn't be too sure it's 10% if we're talking about top fighters.

That Foreman fought Lyle/Frazier/Norton/Ali/Young as top fighters.

Norton had a glass jaw, so no surprise there. Frazier is a come forward fighter. OK. Young easily went past 5. Ali went past 5 as well. Lyle made it into the 5th and nearly stopped Foreman.

so that's 40% that made it past 5, and if you consider how close it was with Lyle (who never really stopped anyone else besides glass chinned Shavers), that number lurks close to 50%.

 

Based on thudding left hooks to the liver.

 

How many kos did Frazier score with body shots ? How many times was Foreman down from body shots? Frazier hit Ali with body shots for 40 rds and put him down once. Frazier hit Bonavena with his hook all night in two fights and couldnt even drop him,something Ali and Ellis and Folley managed. Foreman at over 40 took left hooks from Gerry Cooney who hit harder than Frazier.Foreman took left hooks from Morrison who hit harder than Frazier.Foreman took left hooks from Briggs who hit hard ,Foreman took shots fromMoorer who hit hard ,his chin and body even at 42 are a damn sight more proven than Fraziers.

 

There's a monumental difference between the pace that a prime Joe Frazier would set and the pace that which Moorer set when he fought Foreman. Besides, old George was much smarter at pacing himself over 12 rounds than the young George. Young George was a mauler and a brawler, swinging wild and reckless in his early career.

Young George Foreman has proven to tire after the middle rounds in many contests. His power has virtually saved him from getting knocked out later. Listening to several of his post fight interviews validates my point. George sounded pretty gassed after beating Chuvalo, Frazier, Norton, Lyle, and of course Ali.

The only time I watched young Foreman pace himself was in the second fight against Frazier in Uniondale. I'll argue that this version of the young George Foreman was at or near his best, probably because he was admittedly still scared of Frazier. He didn't try to blast Frazier out early like he did in 1973, but used his jab and boxed with restraint and control. Frazier landed some good shots in that fight, but he was nowhere near the fighter that Ali fought in 1971.

 

Good posts, round15 :good

 

Ask Quarry, Chuvalo, Ellis, Eddie Machen, Doug Jones, Manuel Ramos, Bonavena and even Ali, if Joe's power is overated. Even better, ask Quarry, Ellis and Joe Bugner specifically about Frazier's lack of a right hand? The same right hand was knocking Ali backwards in the FOTC rematch that Frazier neglected in the FOTC. I'll agree with the general consensus that Frazier doesn't have the natural power that Liston, Foreman, Shavers and Tyson possessed.

1967 - FOTC Frazier had arguably the most dangerous left hook in heavyweight history. Sure, it took Frazier 15 rounds to put Ali on the canvas, regardless of the controversial 10th round slip. Ali took some of the hardest punches from all the other heavyweights that supposedly hit harder than Frazier and wasn't knocked off his feet.

Prime Frazier was a relentless force that threw sharp, crisp hooks from both hands, landing to the head and body. In fact, I don't think there's another heavyweight in the history of the sport that featured as concerted a body attack as Smokin' Joe. As for Frazier's chin, let me remind you that Frazier took Ali's best shots and rarely took a step back. These are the same punches that KO'd Foreman in Zaire. Foreman knocked down a depleted Frazier six times and still couldn't keep him down. What does that say about Smokin' Joe's chin? Probably not a whole lot, but it speaks volumes about his heart and toughness. Frazier definitely did not have a glass jaw IMO.

 

Frazier had the ultra durable Jerry Quarry & Bugner on their knees from single body shots.

 

And nobody you mentioned has the output or stamina of Frazier.

You're mentioning Shannon asthma brigs alongside a 15 round great like Frazier?

Morrison?

Lololol

 

I think you overate Frazier's power,the most dangerous left hook in Heavyweight history? More dangerous than Dempsey's,Louis's,Liston's,Tyson's ? Frazier didnt have a glass chin but it was largely untested against big bombers.