Has time been unkind to Smokin' Joe?

He floored Ali with his left hook. That was something that didn't come easy.


Anyway, Joe can make a tough fight for a lot of Heavys in a H2H fight.

 

Sonny Banks floored Ali with a left hook ,so did Cooper,do you think Cooper could have floored say Liston? Frazier was a great fighter but his overated,imo.

 

Very underrated, you don't here him in terms of ATG. Which is what is happening now, people are saying his Left Hook is overrated and he couldn't stand up to big hitters.

Joe had one of the greatest Left Hooks of all time and he can take punishment.

 

He also fought in one of the best era's of Heavyweight history. The only losses he has is one CONVINCING loss to Ali and one razor thin. Two blowouts to another ATG George Foreman. Overrated is not the proper term here, seeming as he beat a lot of good 70's contenders. Sure he did have a short prime but that was because of his swarmer style. Tyson had a short time at the top too, and went a decade without beating a fighter of consequence after that. Atleast when Frazier was on the slide he still beat soem contenders and got back into title contention.

Here are some of his better victories: Muhammad Ali, Buster Mathis, Jimmy Ellis (2x), Oscar Bonavena (2x), Zyglewicz, Jerry Quarry (2x), Bob Foster and George Chuvalo. These were all very good contenders and he beat Ali "The Greatest".

 

One of Frazier's more impressive victories in my mind was the 2 round knockout of Manuel Ramos on 6/24/68.

Sure, Ramos tailed off quite a bit in his career, but at the time he was coming off victories over Terrell and Machen and was regarded as a real comer in the Frazier fight.

Anyway, this fight shows that sheer, unrelenting pressure that I admired so much in Joe. He was hit by a hellacious uppercut in the first 40 seconds of the fight, but recovered and won the round. Round 2 was just awesome as he bullied the much taller Ramos all over the ring, knocked him down twice, and made him wave his gloves at Mercante in resignation.

 

Sorry left out power after" his ",post should have read ",His power is overated imo".

 

Ali was significantly stronger and had a better chin when he met Frazier. The Ali/Clay who faced Banks and Cooper wasn't yet fully developed.

If Frazier stayed in the fight with Liston his hook would start to become really dangerous. No fighter in history is immune to a hook like Frazier's IMO. For my money, Liston is the overrated fighter. I have him at number 10 in my list of ATG heavyweights for the moment, but I'm not sure he deserves that high a ranking. He would be a very dangerous opponent for Frazier, though.

 

Ramos got his shot on the tenuous strength of having decisioned Terrell who was coming off two losses to Spencer and a royal arse whipping from Ali,Terrell was finished as a top fighter he never beat another top contender.Ramos beat a 34 year old Machen and had six known defeats before he fought Frazier[ his early record is obscure] he also had two draws with Joey Orbillo ,and Scrap Iron Johnson ,later to be bombed out in two by Quarry,Ramos was really a hyped up fighter ,early in the Frazier fight he staggered Joe ,who recovered quickly and landed a bomb ,I remember watching it on Tv ,Ali did the commentary he said ,as Ramos signalled he wanted out,"aint that terrible , he wants to go home".

 

Frazier 's hook wore guys out he didnt ko that many top guys with it ,Chuvalo was on his feet at the time of the stoppage,Ellis was on his stool,Quarry was on his feet.Foster was a LH,who never beat a top Heavy,Bonavena ,never went down in two fights,Machen was an old man Zylglewiz was nothing ,Daniels was a third rater ,Stander came from Tough Man contests.I didnt say Frazier couldnt take shots from big hard hitt ing heavies ,I said his chin was unproven against them.

 

Yeah, I know. That's why I said his hook would start to be dangerous if he stayed with Liston. I don't think he would knock out Liston with one punch, but he could well hurt him with one punch and that would spell trouble for Liston because of Frazier's unrelenting attack. The same applies to Liston. I don't think he would KO Frazier like he did Patterson (even Foreman couldn't keep him down, despite some of the most monstrous punches ever thrown in a boxing ring), but he could well hurt him, and that's always bad news for someone who only knows how to come forward.

Out of curisosity; other than Ali, was there anyone Frazier hurt badly but didn't finish off?

 

I think the people who base a negative opinion of Frazier because of this fight, should watch the rematch. Frazier fought a much better fight and came out with a highly respectable result, despite being in such a terrible state. If the Frazier who was shot could last 5 rounds, then you have to assume that Foreman blasting through him in 2 was a one-off. I think if they had fought again in 1973, the fight would have gone a lot longer than 2 rounds.

I think every fighter has underestimated an opponent at some stage in their career. Louis underestimated Conn. Ali understimated Jones. Tyson underestimated Douglas. The difference between those fights and Frazier/Foreman I, is that Foreman was a wrecking machine, who should have never been overlooked.

I also think the Stander fight needs to be looked at more. Frazier had a tough night with this guy - Why? I honestly think Frazier was done as a top level figher after the first fight with Ali. Prime Frazier would ruin Stander, whereas in 1972, they had a close fight. Surely this is also relevant?

Prime Frazier who understands the threat of Foreman would win a close fight by stoppage in the late rounds.

 

I think the fact that Frazier didn't look very good in the fights after FOTC have more to do with motivational issues than physical. I mean, his hunger must have diminished after such a great achievement. He probably felt he didn't have much left to prove. Otherwise he would have rematched Ali sooner to show that it wasn't one off. As it is he seems to have taken only pretty easy fights on paper after FOTC, so as not too take any unneccesary risks with his title. Obviously Foreman was a big miscalculation.

But in his comeback after that loss he started to look good again. In his second fight with Quarry he looked absolutely terrific, better than he did in their first fight. And this was at a time around which Quarry had some of his biggest wins (Shavers and Lyle).

 

Very good analysis.

The Stander fight was nationally televised and threw up all kinds of red flags to me.

Prime Joe stands a much better chance against GF than generally assumed.

 

Frazier did look good in Quarry II, but in my judgment, both men were maybe 80-85% of what they were in their first fight.

That bobbing, weaving, punch slipping Joe of 67-70 became a more stationery target post FOTC, in my view of things.

Joe did use his right hand quite effectively in Quarry II.

 

I'm not old enough to remember Dempsey or Louis' hook and I barely remember Liston's hook. Tyson arguably had more power in his left hook than Frazier, I don't think his hook was a better punch than Fraziers. Remember, Frazier was a converted southpaw so most of his natural power is on his left side. Frazier's left hook while in his prime was a sharp, crisp, hard, accurate punch that did plenty of damage to his opponents.

Correct me if I'm wrong, Tyson's prime weight was between 213 - 217, whereas Frazier's was 203 - 208, based on weight during training and the weigh-in on fight night. By this rationale, it's easy to conclude that Tyson's hook was more destructive than Fraziers because he had more natural weight to his punch. More importantly though is the fact that Tyson favoured his right hand more than his left and he was a natural right handed fighter. I'll safely say Frazier's hook overall is better than Tyson's and still is the best in heavyweight history. Chuvalo got his cheek smashed, Ellis was never floored before he fought Frazier and the visual evidence on Ali's face and the knockdown in the FOTC illustrates the damage done by Frazier with his left hook.

If one were comparing right hands, then Frazier obviously is secondary to Tyson, Liston, Foreman, Shavers and most of the other big punching heavyweights that favoured straight right leads and right hooks. Still, some on this forum are adamant that Frazier had no right hand which I completely disagree with. Frazier had a better right hand then most give him credit for but it's his left hook that garners more attention when compared to other fighters.