Has time been unkind to Smokin' Joe?

Mathis might not have been a suitable opponent but Frazier went on to beat Jimmy Ellis and Muhammad Ali, making him undisputed.

The first Frazier-Ali fight was the most significant fight of the entire era, and the most legit fight between TWO world champions in history. Both guys were undefeated and both seemed to have legit claims to being champion. On top of this, Ali is now often regarded as the greatest heavyweight champion in history - and Frazier beat him when the stakes were highest.

Now, if we assume it all true that Frazier "ducked" guys like Mac Foster and Ken Norton (which seems odd to me because neither were number 1 rivals when he was champ, and probably both had managers who were patiently steering them towards a shot), what does it matter ?
He beat Muhammad Ali in the most meaningful championship fight for decades.

 

Fraziers legacy largely rests on a prime Smokin Joe beating a not prime Ali,Frazier was a great fighter ,but I feel he gets his dues by and large,we dont know that Frazier ducked big punchers ,all we know is he didnt meet Foster,Lyle,Shavers,Norton,Martin ,Liston or Garcia.Thats alot of bangers to somehow miss,imo.

 

It's a shame that Joe gets such a raw deal today. A lot of people are trying to make his victory over Ali a hollow one because Ali was past it. What they conveniently don't mention is how Ali's legacy fights against Foreman, Frazier (that he was past it doesn't matter i suppose), Lyle, Shavers, etc all came several years after Frazier smoked him.

Frazier was involved in the most important heavyweight fight in boxing history and he won it.

 

He did meet Machen, Chuvalo, Bonavena, Mathis, Quarry, Ellis, Ali, Foreman and Bugner, but among the more prominent/dangerous fighters of his era he failed to meet Liston, Mac Foster, Patterson, Norton, Shavers, Lyle and Young. That's quite a few names missing.

No matter wether he ducked these fighters or if other circumstances came in the way, the fact is that they still are missing from his record. Ali met and defeated all of the fighters above (with the exception of Machen) and also have some other good names on his record like Moore, Cooper, Williams, Terrell and Folley. It is due to this difference, much more than to the fact that Ali is 2-1 against him in three hotly contested fights, that Ali is generally more highly regarded today.

 

And no one can take that away from him,Great fighter and it would seem a good man ,I think he gets his due recognition Chris ,he's certainly got enough defenders on this forum.Archie Moore beat alot of guys after Marciano kod him does that mean he was in his prime? Its funny how Frazier is shot when he meets Foreman in73 ,but an older Ali is still beating rated contenders 4 years later.When I said Ali wasnt prime I meant he wasnt in the best of condition ,he could have done with more action ,his legs weren't there,he regained his stamina with a busy schedule later but he wasn't prime for FOTC.,his prime was the 3 1/2 years he was away from boxing!
"I'm fighting all the guys Frazier wont fight!"ALI.

 

How? Explain to me exactly what was better about Ali's performance in the second fight than Frazier's.
It's not a bad excuse at all. Watch the fight. Ali's central tactic in the trenches throughout the whole match is to literally reach out, grab Frazier behind the head, pull him in, push his head down, and put his right hand on the inside of Joe's left to fully neutralize the hook. This same pose happens literally dozens of times- in fact, Eddie Futch reviewed the film and counted over 120 clinches instigated by Ali during the 12 rounds of that fight! It isn't mutual clinching of the sort that happens when the fighters' arms get tied up or they fall together; Frazier is coming in throwing punches and trying to initiate offense, and Ali is deliberately grabbing him, manhandling him and specifically working to minimize the action and stop Frazier from punching. This is a clearly illegal tactic and is making a very large difference to the fight, and Ali is literally never once called for it!

And even as it is, I still don't see where Ali clearly won that fight. There were a reasonable number of sportswriters who scored the match for Frazier. Ali outlanded Frazier by a good margin, but his offense was virtually all shoe-shining that barely made any impact on Joe, aside from the hard right to the temple that shook him towards the end of round two. Frazier was the one throwing serious punches and trying to make the fight.

While the scoring was not a rip-off, I think a draw or narrow win for Frazier would also have been reasonable, and it is certainly possible Frazier could have done better had Ali not been allowed to get away with consistent, repeated and deliberate fouling round after round after round.

 

I've discussed this in so many other threads, so I won't really get in to it here. I can only say that many of the punches Ali lands are good ones, that the clinching was much more mutual than most say (this was also the ref's take on it, by the way), that I have it 8-4 or 7-4-1 to Ali, and that there is no chance in hell that Frazier won the majority of the rounds. I have seen the fight lots of times. For me FOTC was substantially closer than this one.

 

Joe Frazier had a shorter prime than Ali mainly because of their styles. Ali was a guy who didn't go in their head first and trade with people, he also didn't take a lot of punishment. Frazier on the other hand had a short career at the top, because he was a head first slugger. He also took loads of punishment throughout his career which is bound to shorten any guy's career.

If you look at other sluggers like Tyson, Gatti, Holyfield and of course Frazier they all had short primes.

Now look at fighters with long primes at the top with guys like Holmes, Ali, RJJ and SRR.

 

True, and that's also why the boxers you named often are ranked higher, and rightly so.

Next to Ali a prime Frazier is probably the HW I enjoy watching the most. While I see Tyson as primarily a highlight-reel fighter who had many very boring and slow paced fights Frazier combined power, speed and sustained aggression better than anyone I've ever seen. There are fighters with more impressive records, though, while Joe's was FAR from unimpressive, of course.

 

Ali took more punches from bigger punchers than Frazier ,he took the punches of the biggest hitters from the 60's through the 70's
Liston,Williams,Foster,Lyle ,Foreman,Shavers,Norton.To say Ali didnt take a lot of punishment is nonsense,he took too much punishment for far too long.
How come Frazier is ruined by the FOTC,yet Ali goes on for another 7 years,winning the title twice more and fighting ranked contenders as he goes?
Maybe its because he was that much better than Frazier ,ever thought of that? I'm playing devils advocate really ,I agree the reason Frazier 's prime was short,but I get a bit fed up with all this Joe was shot when he fought Foreman stuff,maybe if he had fought contenders after beating Ali instead of two nobodies ,he would have been in better shape to take on Foreman? Instead of cheapening the title taking on unranked patsies.

 

I don't think Frazier was shot for the Foreman fight at all. And i don't think it would've mattered, either. Foreman annihilates him, 1973 or 1971.

 

An unbiased opinion from a Frazier fan! You know I respect Frazier, Chris but he is getting more medals here than Idi Amin.

 

You've got to love it.

If a Frazier fan says Foreman always annihilates Joe, it is because the fan is unbiased.

On the other hand, if another Frazier fan thinks prime Joe of 67-70 has a decent shot at surviving Foreman in the early, dangerous rounds (especially if wrestling moves by Foreman are not allowed) and taking out Foreman in the late rounds, it is because he either is not being objective or has an agenda. :roll:

 

Not proportionate to the number of naysayers who give him lip service and then proceed to rationalize away all of his achievements.

Yes.

Ali had better longevity than Frazier did. Is that a surprise, given their styles?

It isn't as though Ali never stepped into a boxing ring between 1967 and 1970. He did some sparring/exhibition-type things, and the Quarry and Bonavena fights represent wins over two of the top five contenders for the championship! Hardly a fighter taking a tentative step out of retirement.

 

Well, in the Quarry fight he said himself afterwards that he was schocked over how tired he was when the fight ended in round 3, and that he didn't know what would have happened if not for the cut. In the fight against Bonavena he hardly looks impressive, and it's obvious that he doesn't dance around like he did before. You can hear Howard Cosell again and again state that he doesn't look like the fighter he once was. In his autobiography Ali, without relating it in any way to his perfomance against Frazier, says that it wasn't until the second Quarry fight that he felt that he had fully regained his conditioning.

But he was by no means shot or bad against Frazier. Very few fighters would have beaten that version of Ali, but Frazier did.