Has Usky just demolished the myth of the modern superheavyweight?

Yes, that is the level of Whyte. But old Wlad is the only one a level above of the guys Fury has beaten.

So fact remains that it is one of Fury's best wins and he made it look very easy.

And I don't see why the two years since - which Fury has spent mostly running from Usyk - should have made a bigger impact on him than on the older Usyk.

Oh, yes.

Fury clearly has one of the highest ring iq:s of his generation, but his technique is only good in comparison to guys his size. There are lots of holes in it.

Then I genuinely apologise for even entertaining the thought. My bad.

 

Wlad is more than just one level above Whyte. (Wlad only became 'old Wlad' when Fury beat him.)

Chisora II, Wlad, Wilder I, II & III are better wins. So, Whyte, however easy it was (which doesn't detract from the broader point being made, anyway), was a step backwards. Chisora III was a further step backwards and Ngannou a quantum leap backwards.

Well the answer is in the expression of your bemusement, i.e., A lack of activity and challenges.

I don't really understand what you are getting at with this^. Boxers deploy their skills in alignment with their physical attributes - that is applicable to any boxer.

No worries.

That you mistook me for BCS8, however... ....that's gonna live a bit longer in the memory

 

You’re gullible if you haven’t realized that there’s rampant favoritism for Eastern Euro and former Soviet territory fighters in General.

 

39-year Wlad only became old when Fury beat him? What was 39 years for a pro fighter before that?

But sure have him two levels above Whyte if you want. With "a level above" I wasn't really concerned with some exact number of levels (not playing D&D here ), only making a clear distinction in quality.

I have a hard time seeing how Chisora 2 was a better win than Whyte when Whyte stopped Chisora.

The Wilder wins better? If Wilder actually had had the guts to face Whyte we would know for sure. As of now I'm not really sure what you base that on.

Or what you base any of this on apart from making excuses for Fury.

The thing about "technique applied to style" or whatever you said is a very bad take. Fury makes actual bad technical mistakes, mainly in terms of defensive responsibility, and the more skilled opponents he has faced - like Cunningham, Wallin and Usyk - has made him pay for them. Simple as that.

Leaving your chin up in the air when punching and not bringing your hands back to defensive position is not some mystical application that your style or size demands. Its's a bad technical mistake.

This is stuff trainers immediately will call you on the in the gym. Just basic stuff.

Then he also has a tendency to square up, use arm punches, pick his punches up from below the waist even. All on that is in fact on display in Wilder 2, where I can give him a bit of a pass because he could see that Wilder was in no position to capitalise.

But it happens in every fight. He' just big enough, tactically good enough and the opponents most often technically poor enough, to be out of reach or pushing them back and off balance so they can't answer effectively.

The more skilled opponents have been able to exploit it better, which probably is part of the reason why he has had six fights against the two most unskilled of this generation of contenders/belt holders but has tried to get out of facing the most skillful one, Usyk, at almost any price.

You have to give it to him that he knows his limitations much better than his fans do.

An advantage in size will make you get away with it more often, but sooner or later you won't. Later if you're smart enough to stay away from those that can best exploit it.

Trying to make this into anything else is just saying you don't know much about boxing.

And lack of activity for Fury? He had had 3 fights to Usyk's 2 over the last 2 years coming into the fight.

And Whyte alone is better than anyone he had faced pre Wlad. So that he somehow should have forgotten how to box just because he didn't face the cream of the crop - which he has been careful to avoid doing throughout his career anyhow - is really digging at the bottom of the barrel of excuses.

Give it up.


I'll leave it there.

 

OK - Way to go either missing or mischaracterizing the point I made. To clarify:

'old Wlad' was 4-to-1 on to beat Fury. Everyone was clearly on the 'old Wlad' Bandwagon.

Then Fury won against the odds. But it doesn't matter because everyone knew Wlad was old and it was bound to happen, right?

A 41 year 'old-old Wlad' competes in the 2017 'Fight of the Year' against Joshua and damn near wins it.

Well - what do you know? 'Old-old Wlad' looked better than plain 'old Wlad'.

But it doesn't matter, as long as you remember that Fury only beat 'old Wlad'.

Get the point now?

Right, I misread your post to mean you thought that Wlad was 'only one level above'. My mistake.

It's really not that important, unless you are trying desperately hard to elevate Whyte for some reason...

...which you are!

Do you genuinely believe that Fury's win over Whyte is better than Fury's wins over Wilder?

Well - Wilder was clearly more dangerous than Whyte. If you think otherwise, then I don't know what else to tell you.

I haven't made any excuses for Fury. Why would I?

I've simply stated that...

...I can agree with the notion that it was Fury's fight to lose. Audacious, right?

...I think Fury started to slip after the second Wilder fight - Hardly a controversial position to take, but something you seem to find hard to accept.

...I think Fury's punch-resistance has diminished significantly. Yeah - outrageous to think so, isn't it?

But, you assert that Fury's punch resistance is "still fantastic". Fine. Whatever.


I've also acknowledged that Usyk will have slowed down too, just not as much as I think Fury has. Again, it's an opinion, not an excuse and nothing major, in any event - but it's an opinion that seems to be causing you all sorts of turmoil.

That's about the strength of the differences.


What follows demonstrates tangents, some world class straw-manning and sheer ignorance from you, which is pretty mental from a normally level-headed poster like yourself. I really never knew you were such a Usyk fan/Fury-detractor. Truly.

So, not only do you misquote me, you also can't be bothered to know what was said... ...but call it a bad take anyway?

OK... ...Smart!

Fury W KO 5 Cunningham (Yeah - Fury paid )
Fury W UD 12 Wallin (Still beat the guy with one eye )
Fury L SD 12 Usyk (Fury made a mistake that cost him the fight. Without the KD, it's a Split Draw)

Simple as that.

By the way, all fighters - even those referred to as 'technicians' - make mistakes.

I bet all this^ sounded really good in your head while you were typing it but, on posting, it is probably less impactful than you thought it would be. Thanks for providing the tidbits of observation, even though I am not sure why you felt the need.

At this point, were you debating with yourself?

Does Fury do anything right, by the way? Could you maybe have posted some random tangential thoughts on that?

Reads like speculative, conspiracy theory to me, rooted in fandom, and I am not sure how it is related to any opinions I have previously put forward in this thread. Again, this seems to be just you 'thinking aloud'?

Well, one would hope so, wouldn't they?

Again, who are you trying to communicate with here?

Ok, Master Po...

WTAF???

So, let's forget I referred to a "lack of activity and challenges" and that I was responding to a question about Fury, specifically.

Man - I'm actually beginning to feel sorry for you, at this point (unfortunately, I cannot find a 'smiley' that expresses the appropriate level of sympathy.)

Give what up?

The opinions I've put forward in this thread are still the opinions I hold now, and have outlined above. Why would I give that collective viewpoint up? There is a high probability that wherever your tangents have taken you is not reflective of my views now, anyway - Meaning you've kind of *******ized the initial topic beyond all recognition.

I've seen a fair few posters in the past, who get caught up in the fandom of it all and start to imagine arguments that haven't been made. That's pretty much what you've done here for the most part, in what could be viewed as a mild 'meltdown'.

You started off reasonably well (and I have attempted a reasonable reply in kind) and then the substance and sense of your commentary just fell off a cliff, at which point it's a case of.. ...sorry, but go and sort yourself out, chap!

Probably just as well. You might want to consider taking a vacation, too.

 

@Man_Machine

Sorry, I had to remove your quoted words to fit mine in, the system was trying to tell me something, me thinks.

Again, all good MM - just repeating same lest it be lost in translation.

Not harsh words. Just clear words, again.

All my arguments are well reasoned - watch u talk’n’ ‘bout Willis?

Tbh, I’ve already covered off on a lot of what you’ve just said.

I will add and/or redress some points.

Fundamentally of course, you need to win a sufficient number of rounds to win a fight - aside from winning it big, Usyk won and was always winning round 9.

For mine, Usyk won the first 3 rounds, Fury the next 3 and then Usyk won 7 (close), 8 and 9.

Round 9 was a by product and culmination of his work in the first 1/4 of the fight and the preceding 3 rounds.

Fury’s leg were spaghetti because he was getting hit a lot - it’s a strange thing to divorce from that reality - as it seems quite a few other features of the fight are being divorced from real time, due actions and reactions.

The left was a great shot, I think that’s clearly obvious. And, it wasn’t as if Usyk hadn’t been working on Fury’s whiskers since round 1.

I think you stated that you couldn’t see any discernible moment when Fury was hurt prior to the 9th - which belies your perception that his punch resistance had left him...until, that is, the “abstract” events of round 9???

It should’ve been a TKO - no question. No small point. The ref in fact impeded Olek TWICE while he was trying to continue his assault - the second time Usyk had to literally push the ref out of his way.

The ropes supporting claim doesn’t wash - they supported him several times prior during the assault.

The ref gave Fury a well extended benefit of the doubt - to the point that he should’ve either let Usyk finish it or stop the fight - yet the ref intervened ONLY when Usyk was about to land the coup de grace punches.

The ref also held Fury’s arm and partially led him back to his corner - now these are facts that are worthy of WTF?

So, rightfully stopped in the 9th, my scorecard would’ve read 5-3 Usyk with the stoppage in 9.

Quite dominant and hardly the single round, fight winning game changer some would like to believe.

Again, going to the RBR which there is actually nothing wrong with given duly applied context and intent - I’ll add the pro Fury crowd were definitely thinking it was Fury who had changed the game through rounds 4-6.

In fact, they were gushingly administering the last rites to Usyk - aspirational?

To suggest that Fury’s punch resistance suddenly fell through a trap door only when he faced Usyk is far too convenient, to put it lightly.

Also too convenient not to acknowledge that, after being inappropriately saved from a TKO, Fury did in fact do well to come out and fight round 10 - but then Usyk himself had to recover from his own output that rightfully should’ve sealed the deal.

I say “trap door” also because you stated that Fury was fine after being decked by Ngannou in just his LAST fight.

Now the thing is, “I” brought up the Ngannou fight to highlight the 23 second recovery time afforded to Fury. My example, not yours.

Your response addressed and rejected the advantage allowed by suggesting that Fury was fine - but now he wasn’t fine??

There was also my call in of Fury being availed of 23 seconds to recover after the Wilder KD - in 2018 - of course that has to be factored into Fury’s perceived powers of recuperation.

Unless it killed me in the first instance, I too could recover from a direct hit from Wilder - maybe give me 24 hours and an extremely affording ref to do so, though.

Fury used up the whole 10 seconds to arise - then got another 13 seconds atop that...??

It was a single punch by Wilder besides - Usyk threw a multitude, prior to and in that round to get Fury going.

Wilder, after the eternity allowed to Fury, was exhausted and his follow up was nothing to write home about - in fact, he didn’t throw much of anything. Not a great boxer at all.

AJ beat Ngannou primarily because he hits a lot harder than Fury - that’s not a decline on Fury’s part - that’s always been the fact.

Ngannou’s size and strength also nullified Fury’s favourite “go to tactics” - holding, leaning, mauling and hitting in the clinch - its pretty obvious that contributed to Fury’s woes - and those very tactics were beginning to infiltrate into Fury’s game when the going got that much tougher during the fight with Usyk.

Had they also been AJ’s preferred tactics and with only Fury’s power - AJ would’ve encountered some issues also. AJ simply did so much better against the same opponent - sans tying it all back to Fury via circular reasoning.

Uyks engine was limitless in his prime - as I’ve already said, it had to be against SHWs who didn’t have to expend as much energy against him for obvious reasons.

For one example, of course the heat was extreme and had its affect, but see how much more energy Ray Robinson had to expend against the bigger Maxim - Maxim, who in no way compared to Robinson in skill.

Ray easily leading but then ultimately exhausted. Superior skill notwithstanding, the smaller man often has to work that much harder than his larger counterpart.

Even if given the same, literal physical deteriorations as Fury, stylistically, particularly as applied since he moved to HW - it’s more than reasonable to argue that Usyk’s overall effectiveness would suffer that much more.

Uysk clearly resolved to not just box Tyson but to actually fight him also - more aggressively and planted than we’ve seen him before.

Imo, he started more quickly and was clearly punching more purposefully than in other fights. There was a hint of more aggression and harder punching in the second half of the Dubois fight -

All of Usyk’s power shots took their toll on Fury - including on Usyk in terms of energy expended, thus the lull and later gaining of his second wind. Adaptability (significant ATG attribute) with some greater risk invited but perfectly managed.

And let’s not just talk punches on the whole, I see a stat for power shots Usyk 122 - vs Fury 95. and the total punches for Usyk, 170, apparently representing the greatest number of punches landed on Fury.

Foreman vs Moorer - an absolute come from behind KO via a single punch? Doesn't at all compare - including punch stats and stats not duly qualified - what compares is other known measures relative to and against Fury himself.

Usyk knew when to hold em and when to throw em with bad intentions. Yes, he landed a lot of hard shots with a high degree of accuracy in terms of thrown/landed.

Providing a perceived majority feel isn’t taking counsel - it simply is what it is.

My own opinions were formed in absolute isolation. Of course.

At any rate, it’s just as perilous to overly defer to judges scorecards only when they happen to align with your own view of a particular fight.

And then there was also the supporting conduct of the referee that’s also being ignored....the “go to” tactics and part of his boxing IQ?? - deliberate holding and hitting, rabbit punches...etc., and yet, not one warning??

The fact was that Fury was in the best condition he’d seen for a long time - and same goes in terms of his performance.

Many did pivot their predictions on whether he would be conditioned or not, many did excuse his performance against Ngannou being due, in large measure, to lack of fitness and focus.

Had he come in that much heavier against Usyk, that would’ve been yet another excuse plied on Fury’s behalf - and the supply for same appears to be inexhaustible.

And I haven’t just called them excuses - I’ve reasoned exactly why they are false excuses.

It wasn’t Fury’s fight to lose - he fought his best (for what’s worth, he said so himself).

Quite simply, he lost the fight and there have been many unjustified reasonings attempting to mitigate that reality - a still clearly viable Fury lost the decision by a good margin and was also inappropriately saved from a TKO.

IF he fought notably dumb (he didn’t), again, stupid is as stupid does - dems de breaks (sorry, I couldn’t resist) - but that observation, even if it was true, could be glibly dismissed in kind with a “Yeah, and that’s part of the game”.

So, the word is that Fury had not only drastically declined but also became so much more dumb at the same time - all this going down in the face of Usyk - Olek apparently being a mere NPC? Tbh, that reads like two, heavy duty, double safety nets to cushion Fury’s fall.

If one does hold that observation - that the otherwise “smart” Fury somehow fought incredibly dumb - then one might also want to readdress their previous perception of the actual level of Fury’s boxing IQ.

On the other side of the ledger, Usyk, per proven reputation (and clean rep. at that), boxed and fought smart. Very smart. I feel. I very feel. He also showed his usual, unwavering, grit and determination.

I mentally entertained possible decline on Fury’s part, but even handedly, on Usyk’s part also.

Both guys are 35 +, age works it’s evils all
on its own, also. Usyk has also been running at a weight that much more above his natural weight.

I’ve already laid out the reasons why Uysk’s own time at the top at HW was always going to be limited.

So, I saw no significantly impacting decline in Fury, or at least no degree of decline that couldn’t be reasonably argued in equal measure for Usyk also, at the least.

To say that Usyk has seen no or very little decline isn’t a duly balanced view at all.

Now I’m as exhausted as that pair were after the fight.

And, to wrap up, I’d just like to wish everyone a Happy New Year!

EDIT: ****, I just saw how long this post came out - believe me, that won’t happen again.

 

There's things i want to say but can't old mate hahahahaha

 

Brilliant thread this. A host of top posters in good hard debate but with respect. There's invariably going to be a little heat and passion in prolonged exchanges. Bravo.

I mostly lean toward MM's side of things but the vast majority of the debate involves loads of reasonably grey area and opinion. There's grey area even in the opinions of say, Eddie Futch vs other great trainers. All sides have made excellent insights and points.

 

I have to ask...the fight was scored awfully close..

Those who saw it, was it really that close?

 

It was. Had Fury not been so cautious in the 12th it may very well had been a draw and if he had not been knocked down in the 9th (but still lost that round) he could have been given the decision.
I had it something like
Usyk: 1,3,8,9,10,11,12
Fury: 2,4,5,6,7

So imagine that Usyk doesn't have the knock down points and loses the 12th. Tyson has controlled the middle of the fight and has finished strong. Most people would not complain if he had been given the decision, even if it would be a razor thin one.

 

If a five feet ten 185lbs man ,who cut easily,and had a 68inch reach had beaten Fury there would be a case.

 

I mostly pen haikus here but this one's a bit ... difficult ... to condense.

I do not believe so, no.

This question is more about perspectives than facts.

Facts are small men have advantages just like big men.

Easy big man advantage is power.

Easy small man advantage is potential energy.

These should not be argued in terms of demographics. Individualism is fine but not demographics.

As in, a 245 pound athlete may have more energy and recoup their energy quicker than my 160 pound couch potato butt. Because as an individual I am lazy and as an individual this 245er is not. However, athletes to athletes you'll find smaller people can put out energy for longer periods of time.


Or to say that differently, you should expect HWs to suck wind by the 12 a lot worse than FWs do. On average.



This alone should tell you how the rules favor.

36 mins of action puts a time limit on a small man tiring out a large man to a degree that is dangerous for the large man.

36 mins of action changes nothing to the effect of the large man, his power can work two seconds in.

So what we saw. That is truth. Usyk used his time wisely and tired Fury within the time limit. Any small man can do this, potentially.

Fury used his size well in spots but was unable to dictate the pace of the fight and so he ultimately crumbled.



This doesn't mean there is or is not a size advantage. One often says it's silly to have a 190 HW today. Well, Usyk gave up 40 pounds to Tyson and 190 is only giving up 30 pounds to Usyk. It is possible, but these size advantages become more drastic between the sizes. a 190 against a 260 ... is a very, very hard ask for the 190.


A better man will always win. That's why before time limits and weight divisions the HW champion ranged from 150 to 220 pounds.





IMO, for complete fairness and to limit all size advantages, time should go with divisions. Smaller guys should fight longer than 12. Larger guys should fight less. If HW started at say 220 and capped rounds at 8 you'd have action packed HWs. If Fly went for 20 rounds you'd have tired FWs after their fights who were forced to accept a slower pace.

That would also make p4p more clear as the rules do favor the pace of smaller men. It's no wonder why they often dominate p4p. They have the energy reserves to put on more show than any HW could.

 

I'm with you this far.

 

No. A pretty uncomplicated 116-111 to Usyk. 8-4 in rds. The judge that gave it to Fury was appointed by the WBC.

The ref also helped Fury a bit. I'm not as critical as many others about his decisions in rd 9, but he could have called the fight off I think he did get a bit in Usyk's way when he was trying to finish it.

 

Dillian Whyte actually has a better win resume than Wilder so it's odd to see people downplaying the win as nothing special. If beating him is no big accomplishment on Furys part than Wlad is Furys only impressive win.