Having Trouble Seperating Lewis And Holmes in H2H

Holmes against HW ATG opposition

Holmes vs Ali - Lean Ali
Holmes vs Frazier - Slight lean Holmes
Holmes vs Marciano - Slight lean Holmes
Holmes vs Liston - TIE
Holmes vs Tyson - Slight lean Tyson
Holmes vs Dempsey - Lean Holmes
Holmes vs Foreman - Slight Lean Holmes
Holmes vs Vitali - Slight lean Holmes
Holmes vs Wlad - Slight lean Holmes
Holmes vs Holy - Slight lean Holmes
Holmes vs Lewis - TIE
Holmes vs Louis - TIE

7/12 (Most likely Holmes win) 3/12 (Very evenly matched) 2/12 (Holmes not the favorite)

Lewis against HW ATG opposition

Lewis vs Ali - Slight lean Ali
Lewis vs Frazier - Slight lean Lewis
Lewis vs Marciano - Lean Lewis
Lewis vs Dempsey - Lewis
Lewis vs Foreman - TIE
Lewis vs Holmes - TIE
Lewis vs Vitali - Lean Lewis
Lewis vs Wlad - Lean Lewis
Lewis vs Holy - TIE
Lewis vs Liston - Slight lean Lewis
Lewis vs Tyson - Lean Tyson
Lewis vs Louis - Slight lean Lewis

7/12 (Lewis likely win) 3/12 (Evenly matched) 2/12 (Lewis not favorite)

I'll admit the Foreman is a bit edgy here but that's a lot of power. I suspect Lewis to outbox him but I don't know how he does with that power in the opportunity with him peaked conditioned. Against swarmers (Frazier, Marciano, Dempsey) Lewis is a far greater favorite than Holmes due to his size, strength, and harder hitting jab in my opinion. I think Holmes due to his mobility and speed has a better chance to out-point Tyson though. I find Lewis a better threat to Louis than Holmes, oddly. Most would disagree as the slick movers where Louis trouble. I just feel Lewis is too power and a great technician while Holmes leaves himself with too much oppourtinity and brawls far too much. I also admit the Holmes vs Liston TIE is not sketchy too. Holmes could very well easy out-point Liston. As Lewis could possibly knock out Liston. Lewis also has a better chance to trouble Ali than Holmes. Holmes is Ali but inferior most categories but with a better jab.

In conclusion, I guess I lean toward Lewis. Although I feel Holmes superior durability, recuperative powers and balance give him more chances against more styles. While Lewis blows out a lot of styles, he does bad against Tyson in his prime I think.

So who do you think the better H2H HW fighter is?

If you guys could give an H2H top 5 or 10 list I would appreciate that as well.

 

How do you give a slight lean to Holmes against Foreman? That should be a big lean to Holmes. Foreman is tailor made for Holmes. Like you said Holmes is inferior to Ali therefore I think he doesn't win against Frazier.

 

I think it's Holmes fight if he does everything right. I believe because Ali won it gives people the impression that any mover boxer could beat Foreman. I think Foreman has the chance to blow anyone out of their. Holmes tendency to brawl, especially when hurt might give Foreman an opening. Holmes is obviously favored and I pick him to win but I think Foreman has somewhat of a chance. I was debating for a second whether I'd give Holmes a slight lean or lean but in the end it's not hugely important.

As for Holmes. People talk highly of him so I gave him the benefit of the doubt with Frazier. Yes I think Ali is superior but Holmes has a better jab. Against Frazier that's big. Ali of 71 wasn't exactly prime, either. To be frank, a somewhat lean doesn't neccessarily equate that Holmes would win. It's a tough one to call, but it does mean I think Holmes would be favored and might have the advantage. I think Marciano is capable of beating Holmes too. If I write TIE for both of those that really derails Holmes in H2H. Most people would pick him as a favorite in those cases. Lewis has some close ones to that could or could not go his way. Whole point of the thread.

Anyone what do you think of the subject? Holmes or Lewis, who is the better H2H fighter? Do you have a top 5/10 H2H Heavyweight list while we're at it.

 

Pretty even in my view. Against the field and not each other, Lewis gets the nod against top notch right hand punchers and finishers compared to Holmes. But by the same token, I'll lean towards Holmes as being more effective against ATG jabbers. compared with Lennox.

As for who wins when they face off, I can see a case for Lennox or Holmes. Lennox struggled most against guys who with quality jabs (Vitali, Bruno, Mercer) and Holmes had perhaps the greatest jab of all time. But at the same time, guys who had a powerful right hand were always alive against Larry because he kept his left so low, and Lewis had a right hand that could drop a rhino. Holmes is noticably faster, but Lewis is much bigger.

Really it comes down to whether you think Lennox's size, jab and right hand is enough to take down Larry, or you think that Holmes jab, recovery skills, stamina, and speed edge is enough to beat Lewis. I will say though that I side towards Larry if it's a 15 round fight.

 

H2H I think it's hard to seperate them like you have it. I might give the slight edge to Holmes as he can trouble a bit more styles than Lewis. I would also pick him in a close one against Lewis.

 

Ok. I just misunderstood it. No problem.

 

I agree that's why I needed some help. I tried to give a little break down as to where I was coming from at least.

Solid post. I think Lewis should be able to handle other fighters with a solid jab. I think it's him handling a lot of speed that could be interesting. At the same token, Holmes can jab with the best of them it's going to be his movement that helps him clinch against the Liston, Louis, and Lewis of ATG jabbers. Anyway, good post that doesn't really settle the score though.

Would you rank any other fighter over Holmes or Lewis in terms of H2H? I don't think I can. I tried. I think Tyson, Liston, and Foreman would follow (Not neccessarily that order).

 

It was a good breakdown. Nice job. I am off to watch Roy Jones piece his career back together now.

 

PPV so I decided to not do so. However I watched him dispatch Trinidad on ESPN Classic Hope it's a good fight for you sake though.

 

Thanks. :cheers

 

It's an admittedly tough pick. However, in my view at least, I think Lewis would do better against Holmes comp, then Holmes would do against his. Not in all fights but in general. For example Holmes would do much better against Mercer than Lewis did, but I think he would do worse against Ruddock, Golota and others, and would have likely lost more along the way, than Lewis did. But H2h, that's a tough call and too some extent depends on which Lewis shows up. If the seach and destroy Lewis shows up, I think he'd win..if the boxer showed up, he'd likely loose.

 

I already posted my top H2H list some months ago from my results of a total of 120 fantasy matchups between 13 different champs (10 fights each) of high enough legacy, but I'll name who came in the top 5 along with my revised results. Note, Bowe was intentionally excluded due to not establishing a high enough legacy.

Lewis 102 wins
Tyson 93 wins
Holmes 91 wins
Ali 88 wins
Holyfield 84 wins

Now my results were based entirely on how I believed these guys would perform at their peak.

 

Ali 4th and Holyfield 5th, that's quite interesting. How far down were Liston and Foreman out of curiosity? Actually also curious on the list to see how those 13 fighters placed.

 

Here were my original results. They have since been revised. The only places where the order is different now is Tyson being ahead of Holmes, Louis being ahead of Johnson, and Dempsey and Marciano being tied.

http://www.eastsideboxing.com/forum/showthread.php?t=133580

 

Your list is interesting. That's a whole thread before I was here so I want go through it (Well a little I can't help) You definitely highly think up Patterson. You thought Liston would beat him 3 out 10 times was surprising. I've always felt Louis was slightly overrated H2H, but not that extent. Very interesting, thanks for the thread. I like how you went with your gut. I mean, you didn't falter too much and posted it. You knew a lot of those spots would get shitted on but you did anyway. Patterson's durability is highly troublesome. Most ATG knock him out. The thing is he changed his style in the late 60's to early 70's to last the distance. Very safe and even more cautious decision style. He didn't get knocked out as much (Floored a bit) but he hung in there. But his speed/reflexes weren't peaked. Very cool thread though.