Haye v Patterson

Well his advantage in experience at the highest level is almost immeasurably vast. He is notably faster, punches better in combination, is more aggressive and very clearly considerably braver. He has far more experience at coming back from being hurt, and given that he is faster but smaller a ding-dong affair seems likely so this is a considerable advantage. He is more robust physically. Haye's body has basically betrayed him at a point in his career where Patterson hadn't even fought for a title yet. He is inarguably a better general of the ring, is better balanced and has an enormous advantage in in-fighting. He's a better technician, primarily for this reason.

A better question is: What does Haye do better? The answer is probably "be big" and arguably power. But on the other hand, David Haye has never, ever knocked out an elite heavyweight whilst Patterson has knocked out a heavyweight champion of the world and top fifty all-time great. So, possibly not power.

 

I think I might pick Machen. A better point might be to say that had Haye beaten a prime Machen, that would be, by enormous distance, by huge distance, Haye's best HW win.

 

This is crazy talk bro. Patterson worked the peak-a-boo style. His astonishing longevity is based around upper body movement. Haye has better footwork? Patterson used footwork to marshall Archie Moore. Haye used footwork to marshall Nik Valuev.

Possible, but he knocked out absolutely nobody of note. So it has to be regarded as hugely debatable at best. I mean we can say he knocked out shot Ruiz and we can say he knocked out Mormeck, which is his best knockout, but really, he didn't knock out anybody that important. Patterson knocked out Jackson (chin near granite), Moore (the only man to do so between 1949 and 1963 apart from Marciano and Ali) and Johansson (linear HW champion of the world).

I might be given to conceding that Haye hit harder with a single punch measured on a machine or something, but in all the ways that it matters, Patterson is easily the more proven puncher.

I would say that Patterson is faster, better balanced, showed better co-ordination. So I would disagree.

Haye ran away like he was terrified of Wladimir Klitschko, Patterson attacked Liston aggressively. Both were utterly doomed by their strategy but only one of them showed any weakness in terms of mentality and bravery and that was Haye. Patterson is close to unequaled in the department of bravery, and Haye is nowhere near.

Well Haye only really fought one guy who had any chance of bombing him out like Liston bombed out Patterson, and he lost almost every round in one of the most embarrassing performances against a heavyweight champ that i've ever seen. Haye wouldn't have gotten bombed out by Liston because he would have been backing up all night, stinking the place out and dropping a wide decision.

Patterson only got stopped by three men. Two were elite heavyweight champions, one was the greatest heavyweight in history. If Haye fought men of the quality of Ali, Liston, Johansson and Archie Moore and survived without being knocked out, this would be a point, but the best we can say about him really is that he's an unknown quantity.

Well he didn't really use it to kill anyone that would have been much more than a stepping stone to Floyd. It's possible I suppose.

That is a huge leap indeed. Patterson demonstrated some of the best longevity in boxing history, is a two-time heavyweight champion of the world, remains the youngest linear heavyweight champion of the world, by your own research defeated 11 men who have appeared in the HW Ring top ten (was robbed of several others) and ranks among the twenty greatest men to have fought in a classic eight division.

I would have to disagree with you.

 

Well luf, we've agreed that Patterson is faster and better balanced. For me to concede that Patterson was a worse athlete I would need to see considerable advantages in other, unknown areas. You've offered Haye's "there one minute gone the next" style of fighting. OK. I suppose this suggests a superior nibleness or agility - but i would probably have to disagree that he displayed "better agility" on film.

What your suggestion fails to take into account is that Patterson was an expert in-fighter. Nobody really out-fought him there apart from Liston who might be the best ever at heavyweight at that range (there were more gifted in fighters - Charles, Moore, but Liston's combination of chin and power means he likely out-fights them there anyway). Patterson's reluctance to move in and out in this way is a shortcoming of tactical fluidity but it is one that developed in the main due to his expertise at the range Haye "disappeared" from.

I can't see this as evidence of athletic superiority given the advantages that Patterson demonstrated that we have agreed upon.

That's fine, but I'm talking about literal bravery as demonstrated in the ring. Here, Patterson stands miles above what Haye has demonstrated.

Where Liston is concerend, this is fair. Where Wlad is concerned, it is not. Haye fought in a way that literally permitted him almost no chance of victory that was also the most likely to keep him from being punched. Nobody, perhaps nobody in boxing history, can beat Wladimir by allowing him to fight in the straight lines he wishes to use. The man is a battleship. He needs to be rushed and out-manuevered. Haye didn't really fight Wlad, he ran from him.

So I didn't mean to imply criticism of the way he would fight Liston, I was just drawing attention to its inevitability and the demonstration of Haye's mental limitations it illustrates.

I would pick Johansson over him, I think I would make Machen a small favourite, and I think that Moore, at his best, would perhaps be able to out-think and fight him too. Of the guys Patterson "might ahe beat", I think I would pick Ellis to beat him and make Quarry a harrow favourite. This is meaningless too, but I think if you replaced Haye as a debuting pro in place of Patterson, he would not even make it to a world title fight before his body let him down - rendering the comparison even more meaningless. Of course, maybe his comeback will be successful.

Not many can

Nice chatting with you.