"He fought in a bad era"

How about how fat everyone is? If most of the era is out of shape and still successful that's kind of weird isn't it?

Edit- Heavyweight centered as I am I didn't even consider the other weight divisions. I'll leave the comment because it's funny in a dopey short of way.

 

I like this post, but would quibble about the "too small" part. I don't think that is relevant in heavyweight boxing. It is an unlimited division. If Haye, Chambers, and Byrd were in the heavyweight division, it is unfair to criticize Wlad for being much bigger.

 

Of course but how many times have you seen it said that Wlad picked on midgets (for the weight).

 

Right. I think its fair to say that all three would have been cruiser weight champions, if they wanted to, but lacked the size to compete with the bigger skilled heavies of the times. i.e. Wlad who was 4-0 vs Haye, Chambers, and Byrd. The 2nd best heavy from 2004-2014 was likely Povetkin, who is 2-0 vs this group.

 

At his best a bottom level top ten heavyweight. Haye was top 3-6 type of contender, Byrd at one time #1 in the world going into his 2nd fight with Wlad.

 

Here's a real world example of what I think demonstrates how the frequency of fights between the top contenders of the time, strengthen or weaken an era. Below is a comparison of today's (2018) Middleweight division's Ring-Ranked Top-10 with the same for 1958.

I have listed opponents for each of the Ring Champs and Top-10s, going back to 2010 and 1950, respectively (nine years a piece). I have only included opponents of 'significance'; generally other Top-10 ranked Middleweights, across the period.

In some cases, I have included opponents, who had either recently dropped out of the Top-10 or were not quite there yet - but would be soon after the contest took place or may have reached the Top-10, on account of the contest listed. This is with a view to getting a better picture of the frequency of similar level guys, within a reasonable timeframe, as well as keeping true to the impact it had on the Top-10 landscape.

I have also included names for 2018, who have been scheduled in for significant contests, before the end of this year, to keep the parity between the two periods as fair as possible.

Naturally, we expect the long-standing Champions/Titlists to have the greater number of bouts with fellow Top-10'ers. However, there is a stark difference in the number of matches amongst Top-10 contenders.

Whether or not you agree with this being an indicator of strength or weakness of an era, I think the noticeable differences are interesting, nonetheless.


2018

Champ Canelo Alvarez 50-1-2 Gennady Golovkin > Miguel Cotto

1 Gennady Golovkin 38-1-1 Canelo Alvarez > Canelo Alvarez > Daniel Jacobs > David Lemieux > Martin Murray > Marco Antonio Rubio > Daniel Geale > (Curtis Stevens) > Matthew Macklin > Grzegorz Proksa

2 Daniel Jacobs 34-2-0 Sergiy Derevyanchenko > Maciej Sulecki > Gennady Golovkin > Peter Quillin > (Dmitry Pirog)

3 Billy Joe Saunders 26-0-0 Demetrius Andrade > David Lemieux > Andy Lee > (Chris Eubank Junior)

4 Sergiy Derevyanchenko 12-0-0 Daniel Jacobs

5 Jermall Charlo 27-0-0 TBD

6 Ryota Murata 14-1-0 Hassan N'Dam > Hassan N'Dam

7 David Lemieux 40-4-0 Billy Joe Saunders > Gennady Golovkin > Hassan N'Dam > (Marco Antonio Rubio)

8 Demetrius Andrade 25-0-0 Billy Joe Saunders

9 Hassan N’Dam 36-3-0 Ryota Murata > Ryota Murata > (David Lemieux) > Curtis Stevens > (Max Bursak) > (Peter Quillin)

10 Maciej Sulecki 26-1-0 Daniel Jacobs



1958

Champ Sugar Ray Robinson 141-6-2 Carmen Basilio Carmen Basilio > Gene Fullmer > Gene Fullmer > Bobo Olson > Bobo Olson > Rocky Castellini > Ralph Jones > Rocky Graziano > Bobo OlsonRandolph Turpin > Randolph Turpin > Jake LaMotta > Robert Villemain > Robert Villemain

1 Carmen Basilio 52-12-7 Sugar Ray Robinson > Sugar Ray Robinson

2 Gene Fullmer 46-4-0 Ellsworth (Spider) Webb > Neal Rivers > Ralph Jones > Sugar Ray Robinson > Sugar Ray Robinson > Charles Humez > Ralph Jones > Rocky Castellini > Bobby Boyd

3 Ellsworth (Spider) Webb 30-4-0 Joey Giardello > Gene Fullmer > (Dick Tiger) > Holly Mims > Rory Calhoun > Neal Rivers > Rory Calhoun > Holly Mims > Bobby Boyd

4 Gustav Scholz 68-1-4 Charles Humez > Charles Humez

5 Joey Giardello 77-15-6 Ellsworth (Spider) Webb > Joey Giambra > Rory Calhoun > Ralph Jones > Rory Calhoun > Bobby Boyd > Ralph Jones > Pierre Langlois > Willy Troy > Rocky Castellani > Ernie Durando

6 Holly Mims 46-17-6 Ellsworth (Spider) Webb > Bobby Boyd > Ellsworth (Spider) Webb > Bobby Boyd > Bobby Jones > Rocky Castellani > Sugar Ray Robinson > (Willy Troy)

7 Bobby Boyd 50-10-3 (Neal Rivers) > Rory Calhoun > (Neal Rivers) > Holly Mims > Rory Calhoun > (Rocky Castellani) > Joey Giardello > Holly Mims > Gene Fullmer > Ellsworth (Spider) Webb > Willy Troy

8 Rory Calhoun 37-6-1 Ralph Jones > Ralph Jones > Gene Armstrong > Bobby Boyd > Joey Giardello > Ellsworth (Spider) Webb > Bobby Boyd > Rocky Castellini > Joey Giambra > Joey Giardello > Ellsworth (Spider) Webb

9 Gene Armstrong 14-0-0 Rory Calhoun

10 Ralph (Tiger) Jones 47-23-4 Rory Calhoun > Rory Calhoun > Joey Giardello > Gene Fullmer > Charles Humez > Gene Fullmer > Charles Humez > Eduardo Lausse > Bobo Olson > Sugar Ray Robinson > Joey Giardello > Rocky Castellani > Rocky Castellani

 

Galento was actually ripped up, it just doesn't look like it on black and white film

 

I always like when someone has the curiosity (and take the time!) to really take a closer look at a certain subject, to get a feel of what is really going on. So, yes... what you have come up with here is indeed very interesting!

Using your 1958 and 2018 lists, I've tried to look at this from a slightly different angle.

1958:
Here you list a total of 24 different boxers.
Of these, 18 are Americans.
The 6 that are not Americans represent these countries:
England
France (x3)
Germany
Argentina

2018:
Here there is a total of 23 different boxers.
Of these, 5 are Americans.
The 18 non-Americans are from the following countries:
Mexico (x2)
Kazakhstan
Canada
Puerto Rico
England (x4)
Australia
Poland (x2)
Russia
Ireland
Japan
Cameroon
Ukraine (x2)

With regards to the stronger/weaker eras discussion, how should we interpret this?

 

Ah - well - That's a huge topic in it's own right, I suspect...

Boxing has always been an international sport but we now live in an age where the capabilities in global communications, media and travel have improved manifold, making international talent more accessible to the capitals of boxing. Add to this, that the Eastern European entry into professional boxing has seen even greater diversity in the ranks than ever before. (There could be more reasons for this but, these factors strike me as the most obvious.)

I am not sure this situation has a direct impact on the stronger/weaker eras discussion, however. I mean, it would be fair to assume that more boxers in the pool means greater talent but, at the same time, given the improved means to make matches happen, would we not also expect to see more fights taking place, between the same?

I think the proliferation of "titles" has seen greater separation amongst the divisions; little leagues of their own being carved out across the multitude of available straps, combined with occasional and inexplicable rankings by the Ring. I think this is reflected by the infrequent competition, between those being called the best. To my mind, if those deemed as being the best aren't fighting each other very often (if at all), then this state of affairs carries more influence on the relative strength or weakness of a division, than does the introduction of more geographically diverse contenders.

These are just my initial thoughts, rather than strong, established opinions.

 

I went through The Ring ratings for the 1950's just to see for myself where fighters came from. Here are the countries which produced a rated fighter:

1950-1954
England, Germany, France, Australia, Cuba, Canada, Spain, Mexico, Scotland, Tunisia, Italy, Belgium, Argentina, Trinidad, Ghana, Algeria, Japan, the Philippines, Wales, South Africa, Denmark, Thailand, Nigeria

w/o repeating, here are the additional countries from 1955 to 1959
Belize, Venezuela, Uruguay, Puerto Rico, Sweden, Tonga, Jamaica, Morocco, Panama, Northern Ireland, Brazil, Finland

I will be interested if anyone has feedback. It appears the difference with today is mainly the old Soviet Union and Eastern Europe. Anyone have a different take?

 

Last year I decided to find out, how many countries can be found in BoxRec's database for 4 selected years. By this I mean the number of countries, that hosted at least one pro fight in a given year:

1891: 8 (USA, England, Australia, New Zealand, Ireland, South Africa, Canada, Argentina).
1925: 46
1955: 63
2016: 115

NB!: I have not counted Wales and Scotland as separate countries.

As you say, a lot of new Eastern Europe countries have come on board since the fall of The Wall - but also a lot more African countries are now hosting pro boxing.

 

That is a huge increase in spread. I am actually quite surprised by those figures.

 

I don't really know how they are coming up with these stats, but I would just raise an issue (and only raising it as this is a question not a conclusion)

but how many countries were there?

I looked at how many countries were in the United Nations in 1955. The total was 76. In 2011, the most recent year I could find, there were 193.

So, I would ask the question, is this stat merely bigger countries splitting up with separatist movements?

1955-----63 countries out of 76 UN members or 82%

2011-----115 countries out of 193 UN members or 59%

 

Interesting to revisit this in light of this weekend's heavyweight action. Joshua has now stopped 2 of the top 3 heavyweights of the previous era. Fury has also beaten the outstanding heavyweight from the previous era.

Many deride the current heavyweight division as weak, but it doesn't seem to have many of the negative indicators we've talked about. The best of this era are beating the best of the previous one (which is what they should so, but sometimes don't). The top guys are currently fighting each other; by the ring ratings 1 and 3 have just fought each other, 2 and 7 are (presumably) scheduled for later this year, and 5 and 6 fought recently. The number 1 guy has beaten 3, 5, 6 and 8, and all of the top 8 have fought at least one other fighter in that bracket. No fighters who were ranked prior to 2012 are still in the top 10; ie there are no relics from previous eras clogging up the rankings.

Beneath the top 10, there are several unbeaten prospects with good amateur backgrounds expected to make the leap into world class in the next year or so. There is also arguably the most accomplished fighter in the history of the division below ready to join the party.

Not suggesting that this is likely to be a golden era for heavyweights, as some of the top guys are a strain on the eye test, but it should all said and done be viewed as a pretty decent era.