Heavyweight boxer as the greatest P4P boxer ever?

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by The Fighting Yoda, Jun 21, 2022.

  1. The Fighting Yoda

    The Fighting Yoda Active Member Full Member

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    When it comes to the greatest P4P boxer of all time most boxing fans would say it's Sugar Ray Robinson. Others that come to mind are Henry Armstrong, Harry Greb, Sam Langford or maybe Ezzard Charles or Bob Fitzsimmons....

    Usually, they were great fighters or world champions in several weight divisions.

    If someone is a natural heavyweight fighter, he can't really fight in any other weight class, right?

    What do you think Muhammad Ali or Joe Louis would have had to accomplish to be the P4P GOATs? Or should it be a fictitious HW boxer with much better skills who never existed? Is it even possible for a heavyweight boxer to be rated as highly or even higher than Ray Robinson? Or maybe someone is already rating Ali, Louis or another HW as the greatest fighter ever?

    Anyways, lots of questions.

    Some thoughts?
     
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  2. Journeyman92

    Journeyman92 Resident Gadfly Full Member

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  3. Fogger

    Fogger Well-Known Member Full Member

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    I don't think that's true. The lineal heavyweight champ is the real best fighter in the world, of that there is no doubt.

    However, that's why P4P was invented. The question is what if Roberto Duran could translate his skills and body to heavyweight, would be beat Muhammad Ali? Would Naoya Inoue or Floyd Mayweather beat Oleksandr Usyk or Wladimir Klitschko if they were a bantamweight or a welterweight, respectively.

    I don't believe the heavyweight champ would always be the winning answer in these kind of fantasy scenarios.
     
  4. Barrf

    Barrf Active Member Full Member

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    The little guys are so much more skilled than the big guys, I don't know if the HW champ would ever be the winning answer. It's almost not even fair.
     
  5. SwarmingSlugger

    SwarmingSlugger Member Full Member

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    The question is what if Roberto Duran could translate his skills and body to heavyweight, would be beat Muhammad Ali?¨

    Yes.
     
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  6. Frankus

    Frankus Active Member Full Member

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    If Ali had won the FOTC and not lost to Norton he would certainly be in the discussion as the GOAT P4P. That era was absolutely stacked with legendary fighters.
     
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  7. Vic The Gambler

    Vic The Gambler Member Full Member

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    Ali is already in the discussion. If he was that quick as a Heavyweight, imagine him as a MW or even a LW. Hands of Stone Duran wouldn’t be able to lay those concrete mitts on any part of him. At any time!
     
  8. The Fighting Yoda

    The Fighting Yoda Active Member Full Member

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    I think a lot of people judge by a fighter's record (number of fights, rated opponents, worldchampions, HOFs etc.).
    Ray Robinson (I think that P4P concept was invented because of him) had 201 bouts. Muhammad Ali had 61 bouts. He was banned for around 3.5 years. Just in case if he wouldn't be banned and diligently defended his title...maybe he could have 70+ bouts. If he would beat Frazier and Norton more decisively...maybe he would be considered as the greatest ever...who knows...
    It would be impossible for him to have over 200 fights though. He can't fight too many worldchampions, HOFs etc. because he is limited to fight other HWs or guys like Bob Foster.

    I think Joe Louis couldn't be much better. If he hadn't lost to Schmeling + a more successful comeback...would he be on par with Robinson, Greb etc. I'm not sure but I doubt it.

    You can't say it has to be a HW boxer: speedy like Ray Leonard, defense and reflexes like Willie Pep but as tall as Valuev + a punch like Foreman... Human nature has its limits. And If a boxer would be too superior maybe people would say that his opponents were just tomato cans and he lacked great fights.

    Let's imagine there would be a heavyweight boxer nowadays with the talent and dedication to be the greatest ever...
    He is limited in his number of fights, number of rated opponents, world champions, HOFs etc.
    Is it possible that such a boxer will ever be considered as great as Robinson, Greb, Armstrong etc. I think probably not. Maybe Ali is already untouchable for him.

    Then you can say it's just his fate. He doesn't have the circumstances and opponents to become that great.

    Well, I just mean somehow that complete concept (to compare boxers from different times and weight divisions) has its flaws.
     
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  9. Journeyman92

    Journeyman92 Resident Gadfly Full Member

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    When I said that I was talking about Ezzard Charles brother.
     
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  10. Stevie G

    Stevie G Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    No reason as to why a heavyweight should n't be in the reckoning for pound for pound greatest. Like most I give that accolade to Sugar Ray Robinson but Muhammad Ali is definitely one of the best P4P fighters of all time. I rate him number one for the 1960s and number three for the 1970s. And considering that he was past prime for the latter decade,it's a magnificent achievement. For all time I would place Muhammad somewhere between 5 - 8,maybe.
     
    Last edited: Jun 22, 2022
  11. White Bomber

    White Bomber Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Mike Tyson had the potential to be the p4p GOAT, but he blew it.
     
  12. BitPlayerVesti

    BitPlayerVesti Boxing Drunkie Full Member

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    Well there’s a poster here who seems to think Butterbean was a heavyweight Charley Burley. Not sure if there were other members of his 90s super obese 4 rounder murderers row. I think Floyd Patterson slept with his wife or something too.

    He goes by @billyb71 so I wonder if he's related to the legendary Johnny B.
     
    Last edited: Jun 22, 2022
  13. Fogger

    Fogger Well-Known Member Full Member

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    I get it now!
     
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  14. The Fighting Yoda

    The Fighting Yoda Active Member Full Member

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    You're right, Tyson was awesome in the 80s and he was extremely gifted. I don't know if he could be one of the greatest of all time, but maybe:

    1. There were many other great boxers in the history of the sport even if they weren't all that spectacular.

    2. If he wants to be one of the best ever, I think he needs longevity. Then he would have to be the king of the 90s with wins over Holyfield, Lewis and Bowe (if he fights him, because they were from the same hood). Tyson was a short heavyweight and his peek-a-boo style needs a lot of energy. His speed and reflexes need youthful freshness, otherwise he has too many disadvantages compared to the great big fighters. In order to keep this up for some time, he would have to be very hardworking, determined, motivated and mentally strong... then it might be possible but it's very tough!

    3. Let’s not forget PEDs. Who knows exactly how they distorted the competition? You might be the greater talent, but maybe someone else will benefit more from it…
     
  15. The Fighting Yoda

    The Fighting Yoda Active Member Full Member

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    Forget P4P or H2H, Butterbean is the best BMI fighter ever. Nobody would be so competitive with that many extra pounds.