Heavyweight Champ with Worst Opponents?

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by Butch Coolidge, Jul 8, 2007.


  1. ChrisPontius

    ChrisPontius March 8th, 1971 Full Member

    19,404
    278
    Oct 4, 2005
    Thing is, Chuvalo and Mavrovic weren't legacy-makers for Ali and Lewis. Miske is one of the few best names on Dempsey's resume, that's why he's in the spotlight.
     
  2. mr. magoo

    mr. magoo VIP Member Full Member

    50,933
    24,858
    Jan 3, 2007
    On the Billy Miske thing, I don't think too many people are claiming that he was on his death bed per say. I happen to think that he was still capable of fighting, but probably not in ideal health. Some time ago a poster who's name I forgot, claimed to have met Miske's daughter in his travels. She apparently told him that Miske was certainly ill for that fight. This is obviously all heresay, and for all I know could be utter crap, but is it? Nevertheless, Miske was coming off a pretty bad patch of performances, and his most recent win was over a 3-13 tomato can. I want to clearify that I don't hold it against anyone for fighting a few average or mediocre opponents, as most champions have surely met their fair share. I will say however, that when you only fight 6 times in 7 years, your performances better at least be of the highest quality. I don't think I'd criticize Dempsey for his inactivity so much, if he at least fought better challengers like Wills and Godfrey for example.

    That said, I agree with you that he does tend to get underrated by some.
     
  3. janitor

    janitor VIP Member Full Member

    71,522
    27,094
    Feb 15, 2006
     
  4. JohnThomas1

    JohnThomas1 VIP Member

    52,597
    43,927
    Apr 27, 2005
    Of course he did.
     
  5. JohnThomas1

    JohnThomas1 VIP Member

    52,597
    43,927
    Apr 27, 2005
     
  6. JohnThomas1

    JohnThomas1 VIP Member

    52,597
    43,927
    Apr 27, 2005
    Actually Chris came up with a series of cracking posts on the subject. He took on every question and post and really showed some class and knowledge.

    I for one had always taken it for granted that Dempsey was top 10 and had a sterling resume etc. It wasn't until i actually sat down and read the lengthy debate between Chris and others that i realised i may have been a bit blind to the real facts. He certainly opened up my eyes and IMO walked away with the topic.
     
  7. rekcutnevets

    rekcutnevets Black Sash Full Member

    13,685
    344
    May 25, 2007
    Riddick Bowe. I rate Bowe higher than some like to accept, but his defenses against Jesse and Michael are bad.

    Not what the OP had in mind, but those are bad defenses.
     
  8. dmt

    dmt Hardest hitting hw ever Full Member

    11,174
    16,704
    Jul 2, 2006
    but i don't recall u ever having him in ur top 10 in the first placeso i really don't see how much ur opinion has changed
     
  9. Sonny's jab

    Sonny's jab Guest

    Fair enough, I haven't read all the posts.
    Some of the stuff I read from Chris P on the recent "Jack Dempsey sparring footage Bill Tate" the read was kind of lame, IN MY OPINION that is.

    Quotes like "Dempsey was scared to death of black fighters" and technically vague claims about ONLY Gene Tunney among Dempsey's opponents possessing "modern gloved skills" are weak in my opinion.
    On other subjects Chris P is a good postor. On Dempsey he's far too dismissive IN MY OPINION.

    Tossing away the testimony of a generation of 'experts', fighters and trainers is very unwise. Reading too much in to the paper record is unwise too. Making sweeping claims about the historical development of boxing skills is beyond the remit of any postor here I reckon, we run into situations where a "clever" postor here is contradicting a Ray Arcel or Teddy Hayes over a fighter they can barely see on film, whereas Arcel and Hayes (and countless others) lived and breathed in the era, trained or studied the fighters in detail, were central in the world of boxing skills before, during and after the era in question, and basically knew the subject much much better.

    In light of all this, the internet forum postor of 2007 is doomed to amateurish revisionism rather than any earth-shattering rediscovery.

    I dont really care where others rate Dempsey, personally I rate him among the highest order. And I can defend my position.
     
  10. Sonny's jab

    Sonny's jab Guest

    I think Chuvalo - and all the other Ali title wins in the 60s (incl. the brilliant win over the "sick or injured" Clevland Williams) count heavily in his legacy as a fighter.

    Dempsey destroyed Miske in the title fight, and he destroyed several other fighters, including the world's champion, during his prime. Many were breath-taking destructions.

    If I add up all his most notable wins, and consider the WAY in which he won those major wins, and look at his style and ability on film, I dont see many fighters EVER who are in the same class as him.
     
  11. JohnThomas1

    JohnThomas1 VIP Member

    52,597
    43,927
    Apr 27, 2005
    If you recall correctly the few times i have looked at a Heavyweight top 10 i have always, ALWAYS made it Post Dempsey as i admitted i didn't know quite enough about him to make a fair judgement. Well Chris has now made it that i do, and when i do a be all and end all Heavyweight list i can go from Dempsey's era on.
     
  12. dmt

    dmt Hardest hitting hw ever Full Member

    11,174
    16,704
    Jul 2, 2006
    well in fairness you have looked at his opinions- some of which are legit, and others just somewhat unfair criticisms. Anyway it's your opinion and that's fine
     
  13. JohnThomas1

    JohnThomas1 VIP Member

    52,597
    43,927
    Apr 27, 2005
    I've summed up his full debate vs others and looked at boxrec and done a few readings as things went on. A bit of footage to etc.
     
  14. ChrisPontius

    ChrisPontius March 8th, 1971 Full Member

    19,404
    278
    Oct 4, 2005
    So where do you rate Mike Tyson?
     
  15. Sonny's jab

    Sonny's jab Guest

    Tyson has to be rated highly.