I am going to try to judge the resume of most of the heavyweight champions since Tunney by listing their records against opponents either heavyweight champions or rated #1 or #2 contender in the RING MAGAZINE yearly ratings. I arbitrarily chose the first two contenders as representing the cream. In the years in which the title was vacant, I went down to the #3 contender--so the list is fighters fought who were in the top three heavyweights and the record achieved. As the ratings started in 1924, Max Schmeling is the first champion I can get a reading on. It will take a while to post--so please bear with me.
1. MAX SCHMELING--defeated 5, lost to 4 (total record 6-4-1 (3 KO) Sharkey, Uzcudun, Stribling, Baer, Hamas, Louis (6) 2. JACK SHARKEY--defeated 6, lost to 5 (total record 6-5 (1 KO) Dempsey, Wills, Stribling, Godfrey, Schmeling, Loughran, Carnera, Louis (8) 3. PRIMO CARNERA--defeated 6, lost to 4 (total record 7-4 (2 KO) Sharkey, Godfrey, Uzcudun, Stribling, Schaaf, Baer, Loughran, Louis (8) 4. MAX BAER--defeated 5, lost to 7 (total record 5-8 (3 KO) Uzcudun, Schmeling, Schaaf, Loughran, Carnera, Braddock, Louis, Farr, Nova, Galento (10) 5. JIM BRADDOCK--defeated 2, lost to 1 (total record 2-1 (0 KO) Baer, Louis, Farr (3) 6. JOE LOUIS--defeated 16, lost to 3 (total record 20-3 (16 KO) Sharkey, Uzcudun, Schmeling, Baer, Carnera, Braddock, Farr, Nova, Galento, Pastor, Godoy, Conn, Bivins, Mauriello, Walcott, Charles, Savold, Marciano (18) 7. EZZARD CHARLES--defeated 7, lost to 7 (total record 14-11 (5 KO) Louis, Bivins, Ray, Walcott, Oma, Marciano, Layne, Valdes, Moore, Jackson (10) 8. J JOE WALCOTT--defeated 4, lost to 5 (total record 6-8 (2 KO) Louis, Bivins, Ray, Oma, Charles, Marciano, Layne (7) 9. ROCKY MARCIANO--defeated 7, lost to 0 (total record 9-0 (8 KO) Louis, Walcott, Charles, Savold, Layne, Cockell, Moore (7) 10. FLOYD PATTERSON--defeated 4, lost to 5 (total record 6-7-1 4 KO Moore, Jackson, Machen, Johansson, Liston, Ali, Ellis, Quarry (8) 11. INGO JOHANSSON--defeated 2, lost to 1 (total record 2-2 (2 KO) Patterson, Machen (2) 12. SONNY LISTON--defeated 4, lost to 1 (total record 5-2 (4 KO) Valdes, Patterson, Folley, Machen, Ali (5) 13. MUHAMMAD ALI--defeated 12, lost to 3 (total record 18-3 11 KO) Moore, Patterson, Folley, Liston, Jones, Terrell, Frazier, Ellis, Foreman, Quarry, Norton, Young, Holmes 14. JOE FRAZIER--defeated 5, lost to 2 (total record 7-4 (6 KO) Machen, Jones, Ali, Ellis, Quarry, Foreman (6) 15. GEORGE FOREMAN--defeated 3, lost to 3 (total record 4-3 (4 KO) Ali, Frazier, Norton, Young, Cooney, Holyfield (6) 16. LARRY HOLMES--defeated 6, lost to 4 (total record 6-5 (4 KO) Ali, Norton, Weaver, Cooney, M Spinks, Tyson, Smith, Holyfield, Williams, McCall (10) 17. MIKE TYSON--defeated 6, lost to 2 (total record 7-3 (5 KO) Holmes, Thomas, M Spinks, Smith, Holyfield, Williams, Ruddock, Lewis (8) 18. EVANDER HOLYFIELD--defeated 8, lost to 5 (total record 9-6-2 (4 KO)--Foreman, Holmes, Dokes, Thomas, Tyson, Bowe, Lewis, Bryd, Ruiz, Rahman, Toney (11) 19. LENNOX LEWIS--defeated 8, lost to 2 (total record 8-2-1 (7 KO) Weaver, Ruddock, McCall, Holyfield, Grant, Rahman, Tyson, Vitali Klitschko (8) 20. HASIM RAHMAN--defeated 1, lost to 3 (total record 1-3-1 (1 KO) Holyfield, Lewis, Ruiz, Toney (4) 21. VITALI KLITSCHKO--defeated 1, lost to 2 (total record 1-2 (1 KO) Bryd, Lewis, Kirk Johnson (3) 22. WLADIMIR KLITSCHKO--defeated 3, lost to 0 (total record 3-0 1 KO Bryd, Peter (2) 23. MICHAEL SPINKS--defeated 2, lost to 1 (total record 3-1 (1 KO) Holmes, Cooney, Tyson (3) 24. LEON SPINKS--defeated 1, lost to 3 (total record 1-3 (0 KO) Ali, Coetzee, Holmes (3) 25. RIDDICK BOWE--defeated 3, lost to 1 (total record 4-1 (3 KO) Thomas, Holyfield, Dokes (3) 26. MICHAEL MOORER--defeated 2, lost to 2 (total record 2-2 (0 KO) Smith, Holyfield, Foreman (3) 27. SHANNON BRIGGS--defeated 1, lost to 1 (total record 1-1 (0 KO) Foreman, Lewis (2) *Obviously, the smile icon is the #8.
Nice. Marciano's achievments read nicely and starkly in this context. Other big winners seem to be Wlad, Carnera and Lewis. The big loser seems to be Walcott! It's nice to see that Braddock is in good shape!
Of course, Carnera has two foul victories on there, which might be fishy, but even taking them out, he is a solid 5-3. He was probably better than generally judged. Baer comes off a loser, also, I think.
Really, though, considering his rep and the length of time he fought, I think Foreman is the most surprising and the most disappointing.
Some great research there, Fogey! I will put them in a table (perhaps Excel) later to makes things a bit easier to see. Ordering them by winning percentage, number of contenders, etc. By the way, do you have a lot of spare time? If so, it would be great to see the same stats only then against top10 contenders, instead of top2. Please?
By the way, i must say i am suprised that Valdez vs Liston, Weaver vs Lewis and Thomas vs Holyfield were top2 contenders. All of them were washed up.
Well, I did print the BOXING REGISTER list for Hall-of-Famers back awhile. But going down to #10 is difficult. I also think this is useful because the top two men are truly serious contenders. The #10 man is often a come in and go out fringe contender. It is good to know who fought the top men and how each did against them.
No. I said were rated at any time. It could distort some between one fighter and another but I think it evens out for the most part. Valdes is a good example. Not rated at all when Liston fought him after losing twice in 1959, but the #2 contender in 1958.
Great post, OLD FOGEY. On facts like this, you can clearly see why I always criticize someone, if he has Liston for example in his Top 5 HW´s of all times...
Why pick on Liston? What is so miserable about 4-1, especially given that the "1" was past peak losses to peak Ali (even if you take both fights seriously)?
I picked him just as an example. I could also take Carnera as a positive example. I have nothing against Sonny, I just feel that he´s very overrated today (also because to hype up Ali´s career), but I wrote it yet, and it´s off-topic...
So to put it easier to read, this is them ordered on best records: 1. Joe Louis 20-3 (16 KO) 2. Muhammad Ali 18-3 (11 KO) 3. Rocky Marciano 9-0 (8 KO) 4. Lennox Lewis 8-2-1 (7 KO) 5. Ezzard Charles 14-11 (5 KO) 6. Mike Tyson 7-3 (5 KO) 7. Primo Carnera 7-3 (2 KO) 8. Evander Holyfield 9-6-2 (4 KO) 9. Joe Frazier 7-4 (6 KO) 10. Sonny Liston 5-2 (4 KO) 11. Riddick Bowe 4-1 (3 KO) 12. Wladimir Klitschko 3-0 (1 KO) 13. Max Schmeling 6-4-1 (3 KO) 14. Michael Spinks 3-1 (1 KO) 15. Larry Holmes 6-5 (4 KO) 16. Jack Sharkey 6-5 (1 KO) 17. George Foreman 4-3 (4 KO) 18. Jim Braddock 2-1 (0 KO) 19. Ingomar Johansson 2-2 (2 KO) 20. Michael Moorer 2-2 (0 KO) 21. Shannon Briggs 1-1 (0 KO) 22. Floyd Patterson 6-7-1 (4 KO) 23. Vitali Klitschko 1-2 (1 KO) 24. Jersey Joe Walcott 6-8 (2 KO) 25. Max Baer 5-8 (3 KO) 26. Hasim Rahman 1-3-1 (1 KO) 27. Leon Spinks 1-3 (0 KO) My top4 for heavyweights is identical to this one, but after that, my list is quite different. I would like to say that besides Foreman, Holmes comes out suprisingly bad as well with 6-5. Barely better than 50-50. I think the fact that he refused to fight high ranked challengers in his prime contributed somewhat to that. Sidenote: wasn't Sergei Liakhovic ranked in the top2 when Shannon Briggs knocked him out? He was certainly considered the #2 on the boards here (behind W. Klitschko), but i'm not sure about the ring rankings at that moment.
I'm not going to do all of them, but here is the top 5 lists on some positive comparisions: Winning Percentage- 1. Marciano (100%) 2. Louis (87%) 3. Ali (86%) 4. Lewis (80%) 5. Bowe (80%) Most wins- 1. Louis (20) 2. Ali (eighteen) 3. Charles (14) 4. Marciano (9) 4. Holyfield (9) Most men defeated- 1. Louis (16) 2. Ali (12) 3. Lewis (eight) 4. Holyfield (eight) 5. Marciano (7) 5. Charles (7) Highest KO percentage (to total fights) 1. Marciano (89%) 2. Louis (70%) 3. Lewis (64%) 4. Bowe (60%) 5. Liston (57%) 5. Foreman (57%) Most KO's 1. Louis (16) 2. Ali (11) 3. Marciano (eight) 4. Lewis (7) 5. Frazier (6) Most contenders ko'd 1. Louis (16) 2. Ali (eight) 3. Marciano (7) 3. Lewis (7) 5. Tyson (5)