1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

Heavyweight Champions from Ancient to Present (WIP)

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by GlaukosTheHammer, Nov 15, 2017.



  1. GlaukosTheHammer

    GlaukosTheHammer Active Member Full Member

    1,464
    931
    Sportsbook:
    1,000
    Nov 7, 2017
    Added Figg-Sutton back and forth and the Pipes-Gretting back, forth, back, forth, and back again. Thinking I'll skip to Hen because his name's always made me smile.
     
    Clinton likes this.
  2. BitPlayerVesti

    BitPlayerVesti Active Member Full Member

    1,013
    546
    Sportsbook:
    1,000
    Oct 28, 2017
    Maybe add Yankee Sullivan, who claimed the title after Hyer retired, before losing to Morrissey, and Bill Poole who beat Morrissey when he was champion, but then got killed.

    John J Dwyer also claimed the championship of America just before Sullivan.

    There's a few later English champs you could maybe include, but a bit questionable, I've never looked that much into them, but it comes accross like a bit of a mess. Jack Knifton, Jem Smith, Ted Pritchard.

    There's also the Australian champions, Larry Foley, then Tom Lees.
     
    Last edited: Mar 10, 2018
    Clinton likes this.
  3. GlaukosTheHammer

    GlaukosTheHammer Active Member Full Member

    1,464
    931
    Sportsbook:
    1,000
    Nov 7, 2017
    This content is protected


    With time frames being such a big skip it'll be awhile before I look back at Yanks, but for the most part I don't have claimants unless their claim was backed by something more than them alone and a lack of challenges. I may endeavour to include claimants at some point along with lesser org titlists and regionals, but at the moment just getting major world titles backed by some decent level of force in the division has been quite the load.

    Yankee is one of my favorite characters in all of boxing history. I will definitely be giving him his proper respect when I get to the mid 19th.
     
    Clinton and BitPlayerVesti like this.
  4. edward morbius

    edward morbius Boxing Junkie Full Member

    6,672
    893
    Sportsbook:
    1,000
    Sep 5, 2011
    "pleasure speaking with you."

    Same here.

    "By political what do you mean?"

    Not that you are political, but that the sanctioning bodies are. And a "political" decision could be justified or it could be just bizarre and self-interested.

    I'll try again with Godfrey and Savold. In the five years prior to the IBU stripping Baer (or was it Braddock) at least one European had taken part in every championship fight--Schmeling, Carnera, or Uzcudun. Pierre Charles lost in 1932 to Carnera and in 1933 to Uzcudun. Carnera beat Uzcudun in an all-European championship fight. Baer becomes the #1 contender by KO'ing Schmeling and then KO's Carnera. The IBU now jumps in to demand that Baer fight Charles, who was hardly the top contender, or have his title stripped. Obviously, this was simply a crass effort to hijack the championship. Europeans had not been frozen out. Godfrey was picked as an opponent as he was a "name" who had been going downhill through the early thirties, and was 38. He wasn't even the colored champion I believe. Obie Walker had that claim. And Godfrey had been losing to ordinary white heavyweights like Jack Gross and Walter Cobb. Still, Godfrey proved better than Charles. Hardly any serious fan or observer/writer took this championship claim at all seriously.

    The situation was different in 1949 with Savold. No European had fought for the title since 1938. The top Europeans, Bruce Woodc-ck and Olle Tandberg, had some wins over good Americans. The American boxing scene was dominated by the IBC, a monopoly run by gangsters. The IBC designated two Americans who were contracted to them, Charles and Walcott, to fight for the title vacated by Louis. Although in retrospect, and probably to most contemporary observers, Walcott and Charles were the best heavyweights out there, this was high-handed and the Europeans were justified in feeling frozen out. Matching Charles and Walcott with Woodc-ck and Tandberg with the winners fighting for the title in a final elimination would have cleared up matters fairly. The Europeans responded by staging their own title fight between Woodc-ck and the best available American contender, Savold. As with Godfrey, Savold upset the apple cart by winning. Few took his title claim seriously, but as no one was stripping a legitimate champion, his claim was less off the wall.

    I see a big difference between stripping a legit champion and the issue of who gets to fight for a title vacated by a retiring champion.

    Anyway, I hope this clears up this aspect of how I view these things.
     
    Clinton and GlaukosTheHammer like this.
  5. BitPlayerVesti

    BitPlayerVesti Active Member Full Member

    1,013
    546
    Sportsbook:
    1,000
    Oct 28, 2017
    Guys I've just found something really ****ing interesting thanks to an unsourced Wikipedia claim.

    Will update later
     
  6. BitPlayerVesti

    BitPlayerVesti Active Member Full Member

    1,013
    546
    Sportsbook:
    1,000
    Oct 28, 2017
    This will need some verification obviously
    This content is protected

    Protestant Mercury December 28, 1681 (page 4)
    Yesterdaya Match of Boxing was performed, before his Grace Duke of Albemarl, between the Dukes Foot-man and a Butcher, the latter won the Prize, as he hath done many before, being accounted (though but a little Man) the best at the Exercise in England

    This content is protected
     
    Clinton likes this.
  7. GlaukosTheHammer

    GlaukosTheHammer Active Member Full Member

    1,464
    931
    Sportsbook:
    1,000
    Nov 7, 2017
    The butcher story is fairly well known actually. I'm not real sure why it's not considered a verified account of a fight having taken place, but I'm sure if you look for more accounts you'll find them. I'm not so sure about finding another from 1681, but maybe.

    Very nice find, I can't say that I've ever read or seen an account contemporary with the event on this one.
     
    Clinton likes this.
  8. Senya13

    Senya13 Boxing Junkie Full Member

    9,276
    235
    Sportsbook:
    1,000
    Jul 11, 2005
    Even if we accept it as true, it was a wrestling match, not boxing bout.
    As for the other thread, where you asked somebody Russian-speaking to help with research, I'm not sure if Mr. Arly Allen passed this to you or Escudo, but I'll look into it when I have more time on my hands. It's just that I've been too busy last several months to do any significant research, and looking up that Metropolitan Kirill's ban on boxing will likely involve sources in old Russian, which I don't know (I'm not a linguist), but I'll try my best to get the exact wording of what's in there. When I have time.
     
    Clinton and escudo like this.
  9. GlaukosTheHammer

    GlaukosTheHammer Active Member Full Member

    1,464
    931
    Sportsbook:
    1,000
    Nov 7, 2017
    I'll not challenge or confirm as I'm not real sure what you've been looking at, and I'm not exactly a HEMA expert or anything. So I'll just tell you what I've picked up. You may well be able to generalize that era much better than I, but there are plenty of instances where a fighter would be allowed nothing but fists as his weapons and wrestling would be impossible. For example any honor duel featuring a man and woman. Domestic violence, adultery, marital problems in general seem to be the prompt for this sort of duel, but it was not limited to them they're just what I've read about the most. Anyway, point is the man would be buried to his waist, the woman would be armed with a sack filled with rocks. Quitting was how it ended, rewards were honor....hence honor duel. I'm not sure if honor duel was a term they used in the oldens or if it's a term historians use for classification like Gnostic.

    Translations- Your a credit to the community my friend. @escudo I think that's all he needs, that tag thing, for to see this. He's on vacation atm I believe, but I should expect him to get in contact with you. It's largely his project atm. I'm not sure if he saw me talking about it in a thread or if he had just caught wind somewhere else and asked me, but once he did confirm there was a legitimate reason to put in effort I tell ya he put in a real real respectable amount of work. I reckon he's got himself a whole team now. That too was pretty impressive, he went to the IRBO and put out feelers on his blog, I think it's called a blog, and got himself a whole mess of people to work with. I was going to do Russian boxing well, well, after the HW Champs project so all I have are the chronicles that are fairly easy to find. Gustav and such. It's really Escudo who would have the good research done and ready to go.

    That said, I ain't saying I won't be using your services, just that my focus is currently on the champ while his is currently on Russia so he's ready right now. You'll be hearing from me later if you're still around and willing. If escudo's full up, or done, by now I'll still have stuff for you to look at from time to time and really really appreciate you being there for us limited to english, super cool.
     
    Clinton likes this.
  10. Senya13

    Senya13 Boxing Junkie Full Member

    9,276
    235
    Sportsbook:
    1,000
    Jul 11, 2005
    Quoting from my email sent to Mr. Allen a couple of months ago:

    It refers to the Primary Chronicle description of a battle between Kievan Rus' and pechenegs that had taken place in 992, during the reign of Vladimir I.

    Two armies stood on two sides of river Trubezh and instead of attacking each other at once, they chose to negotiate. The Pecheneg khan offered both sides to choose one man, and they would then fight each other, and the army who's fighter was first thrown on the ground (wrestling match) would be considered loser. Prince Vladimir made announcement in his camp for a volunteer to fight the pecheneg man, but the later was so huge and terrible looking that nobody answered the call. Then an old man came to Vladimir and said he had 5 sons, but only brought four of them with him to the battle, the youngest son (who's name was listed in the Chronicle as Yan Usmoshvets) stayed at home, and he was a good wrestler who had never been thrown down before, and once killed a bull with one blow of the fist. They brought that young man to the field of battle to oppose the pecheneg man. They wrestled and the russian strangled the pecheneg to death and threw him to the ground. Then Russian army attacked the pechenegs and the latter fled.

    This mix of young man killing a bull with one blow and the wrestling match (both of which were allowed in bareknuckle boxing) is used as an argument of it being a boxing match as well as a wrestling bout.
     
    Clinton likes this.
  11. BitPlayerVesti

    BitPlayerVesti Active Member Full Member

    1,013
    546
    Sportsbook:
    1,000
    Oct 28, 2017
    It's worth remembering that these books such as Boxiana were written when much less was known about the middle ages, and they were generally derided.
    I'm also not all that convinced that this decree would stand for well over 1,000 years, before casually being brushed aside in the time of Broughton and Figg

    As for that text I postes it seems bizzaire to me more isn't made of it. It's not just a bout, decades before Figg, we have a Duke watching it and someone seen as the best in England, which I don't think it'd be a great stretch to call a champion. It actually sounds fairly established, not a one off scrap.
     
    Clinton likes this.
  12. HerolGee

    HerolGee Boxing Junkie Full Member

    36,762
    2,146
    Sportsbook:
    1,000
    Sep 22, 2010
    this is one of the best threads ever, and not even just on ESB. deserves a sticky IMHO.
     
    Clinton and GlaukosTheHammer like this.
  13. GlaukosTheHammer

    GlaukosTheHammer Active Member Full Member

    1,464
    931
    Sportsbook:
    1,000
    Nov 7, 2017
    I agree, in fact in my original version of this thread on this forum, which may still me on here somewhere I'll have a look and bump it if I find it in a bit, I even asked openly if any readers believed the Butcher ought to be added as a champion of sorts given he is the first account of a victor in a prizefight that is generally accepted to be true or have happened in some manner and does referred to an arranged fist fight rather that a club fight or wrestling or some such.

    If there's none who feels strongly enough to protest I will add him to the list along with the information you gathered and anything I may find to add. I see no reason to not represent him in some manner and allow the reader their own opinion.

    I appreciate that bud, I'm sure the other contributors do too.

    That has been my general concern, more often than not even limited by google and babble It seems to me what is described is more of a wrestling or pankration type thing, but then I thought well, bare knuckle was rather pankrationist too so maybe it's more in what they thought of themselves than what I think of their descriptions. Who am I to tell Russia that's not a description of boxing if Russia says it is sort of thing. Of course any and all information is welcome and appreciated, but in my own personal opinion final say as to whether or not it was boxing or we just misunderstand the work i'd say goes to the Russian contemporaries and academics.

    I'm going to bump the Russian Fisticuffs thread and link it here. If i didnt, I probably did, but if didn't source the Russian original it shouldn't take me long to find it. Any amount of human translation would mean the world to me. I had given up hope on it and reserved myself to reading escudo's findings as he and his team were moving so fast I just couldn't keep up and maintain some level of continued work on my champs threads.

    You're saint bud.
     
    Clinton and BitPlayerVesti like this.
  14. GlaukosTheHammer

    GlaukosTheHammer Active Member Full Member

    1,464
    931
    Sportsbook:
    1,000
    Nov 7, 2017
    This content is protected


    I'll be adding probably some kind of other works to the post with the history video in it so that links like this one are on the main page just after the list, but I want to hold off on that until the thread is more than a google translated article.
     
    Clinton and BitPlayerVesti like this.
  15. GlaukosTheHammer

    GlaukosTheHammer Active Member Full Member

    1,464
    931
    Sportsbook:
    1,000
    Nov 7, 2017
    There will be revisions soon, this list is broken.
     


Share This Page