Heavyweight Champions from Ancient to Present (WIP)

It says a lot that list of English Monarchs has 117 references, while list of heavyweight boxing champions has 6, only 1 of which is properly formatted.

For the record, it does mention the Maher lineage, but it's buried in a footnote, so I suspect most would miss.

The monarch one does actually list him as a Lord Protector in the Interregnum period.
This includes him in a list of kings too https://www.historic-uk.com/HistoryUK/KingsQueensofBritain/
But also calls him a lord protector.

This also includes him in a list of monarchs
https://www.britainexpress.com/History/monarchs.htm

 

Pugilistica also includes Jack Harris (with the caveat of doubtful) on the list of English champions. Any info on him? Seems odd they added him at all.

 

The Police Gazette, as far as these things are concerned, was basically an opinion of one or two people, depending, whether the boxing editor agreed with the owner of the newspaper or not. Richard K. Fox, obviously, had an agenda (of making the newspaper more sensational, so it sells better) and his opinions/decisions should be treated accordingly. Boxing editor at the time of Wilson and Kilrain was Bill Harding, I'm not sure whether he agreed with newspaper owner or not, that'd require additional research, which I don't really care to do. In the 1880s there was a number of other respectable sporting writers who's opinion may be important, Joe Elliott of the NY Herald, Macon McCormick of Cincinnati Enquirer, boxing writer of NY Clipper (not sure who wrote boxing at the time, may be Al Wright or Charles Colvin), Uncle Toppy McGuire of NY Sun, Capt. Cooke of Boston Police News, P.J. Donohue of NY World.

 

I get their opinions may be better for actual truth, but were any close to the importance of the Police Gazzette, which had it's own title, and rules, which a lot of fights were fought under.

I do want to add, Sullivan was retired and not fighting, and Slavin was a top contender, and a fairly legit choice for the next champion, even if the American public never really accepted him, he lost this claim to Jackson, so it also adds to the inclusion of Peter Jackson as champion. (I've also seen Corbett Vs Jackson billed as a world title fight, which I generally don't see mentioned in the modern writings of it). Kilrain ended up with his claim, not entirely without some legitamacy, though I still don't think he's close to a legit champion. Sullivan wouldn't fight him or Jem Smith bareknuckle as they challenged him. They fought and Kilrain got the better of it, so got that claim, which got Sullivan to fight him.

 

Elliott (born 1813) wrote sports (including boxing) for NY Herald since 1830s or 1840s. More knowledgable than any other American sporting writer at the time.
McCormick (born 1837) saw his first prize fight in 1853 and had covered lots of fights for Cincinnati Enqurer starting from early or mid 1870s.
NY Clipper was at least as much respected as was NPG in the 1880s, on boxing matters.
McGuire (born in 1810s as far as I can tell) was sporting editor of NY Sun since at least 1878, possibly earlier, who was known for using drawings instead of writing when reporting a fight, was very much respected.
Cooke (born 1843) was probably not as well known at the time as he was in the 1890s, but based of his "pupils" he understood boxing extremely well and was often quoted by other newspapers, not only in USA.
Donohue (born 1857) was sporting writer since 1876 or thereabouts (starting in NY Sportsman), was sporting editor in NY World in 1880-1890, was ofted quoted as a boxing expert.
Harding (born 1848) was sporting editor of NY News from 1868 and sporting editor of Police Gazette since around 1880 I think, I was not saying his opinion was less respected than the others.

 

SO dear ESB historians I'm looking for opinions and notes on my book, at least what I've got so far. SInce this thread is now long enough that I can safely post it with only you few (who I greatly respect) still replying, please have a look at it. If you download it, please be prepared to give me some notes.

https://mega.nz/#!23plSLYY!a1moo5UVKEz47xGH05QraYG-uFpDDeMaEJRsKb9w9fo

It's at 42 pages, 22,500 words so far.

 

I quickly skimmed it. I'll give it a proper read later, but a lot of interesting stuff.

I'd suggest adding a citation system. I know some people go back and add that stuff in, so I don't know if you plan on doing it like that (though I prefer to add them as I go). It helps people assess the information more, since they know where it is coming from, and can help with future research.

I few odd bits and pieces I'd mention, even in a footnote or something.
Might be worth giving slightly more info on depictions of fighting from the bronze age. It seems it's more wrestling, but in the Epic of Gilgamesh, Gilgamesh fights Enkidu, before they become friends.
Enclyopedia Britanica claims there's a Summerian depiction from the third millenium BC, as well as an Egyptian one from around 1350BC.
There's also this Minoan one
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akrotiri_Boxer_Fresco

Might be worth meantioning mob football, which took place in various countries acros Europe, and appears to be much closer to a massive fight, then it is to modern football.

I haven't found much on it, but it appears similar group fist fights were going on in Italy, though not as early. I stuck anything I found in here. https://www.boxingforum24.com/threads/references-to-italian-boxing-1200-1800.611374/#post-19306301

I referred last page, to a report Senya found of Slack losing to Taylor again, after his win over Broughton, it makes things messier, but probably ought to be mentioned. He's found a lot of usefull articles, that could help add more, especially to the early English stuff, where the main sources are so indirect.

 

He was the ref of the fight. It was a finish fight. Hart at the time was a clear #1 or #2 for the vacant title. He had beaten Johnson, Ruhlin, Ferguson, Choynski, and O'Brien.

Root at the time had only lost to Gardner, but he avenged the loss in 1904, also beating Flynn, McCoy and Hart himself. In 1905, you can argue he was the #2 contender.

Are you saying Jeffries put up his own money as the promoter for the event and picked who the fighters for the vacant title all by himself?

Jeffries also said he denied giving the title to Hart after time passed.

Wise choice, my points stand.

 

I did a Jack Harris thread
https://www.boxingforum24.com/threads/english-champions-jack-harris-the-spaniard-doubtful.614060/

I'm not fused if you want to include him or not, especially without finding some primary sources, I just wanted to find a bit on him, and see if anyone had anything else..

 

Lmao this is great. Are there any good books on ancient boxing?

 

I'll be adding to that list in a year or so when "A history of Violence" drops. @Gazelle Punch there is a very rough download of what I have so far (it's very rough and unedited) but covers everything I could really find on Ancient Greece through Jack Broughton.

 

New York Clipper, 30 July 1853

Champions of England from 1719 to 1852
1719 . —FIGG .
1734 . —GEORGE TAYLOR .
1740 . —JACK BROUGHTON .
1750 . —JACK SLACK .
1760 . —JEM STEPHENS .
1761 . —GEORGE MEGGS .
1764 —BILL DARTS .
1769 . —LYONS .
1777—HARRY SELLERS .
1785— JOHNSON .
1790 . —RYAN ( Big Ben ) .
1792 . —MENDOZA .
1795 . —JACKSON ( retired ) .
1803 . —JEM BELCHER .
1805 . —PEARCE ( the Game Chicken ) .
1808 . —GULLEY ( declined the office ) .
1809 . —TOM CRIBB ( received a belt , not transferable , and cup .
1824— TOM SPRING ( received four cups , and resigned office ) .
1825 . —JEM WARD ( received a belt , not transferable ) .
1833 . —DEAF BURKE ( claimed the office , since dead ) .
1839—BENDIGO , beat Deaf Burke , claimed championship , and received belt from Jem Ward .
1841 . —CAUNT , beat Nick Ward , and received a belt by subscription . This belt is transferable .
1846 . —BENDIGO , beat Caunt , and got the bolt , which he still holds .
1851 . —PERRY ( Tipton Slasher ) , beat Paddock , and claimed the Championship , Bendigo refusing to fight
1851 . —HARRY BROOME, beat Perry​

I find it interesting to see the different versions of the lineages, who they decide to include and exclude. It might be worth searching for "JEM STEPHENS", it might lead to more info on The Nailer.

 

That's not NY Clipper's lineage, it's a re-print from Fistiana. For example, see 1846 edition, page 99. That's Vincent George Dowling's version. After his death, later editions of Fistiana, edited by his son, Frank Lewis Dowling, listed a somewhat different lineage.