Heavyweight Champions from Ancient to Present (WIP)

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by GlaukosTheHammer, Nov 15, 2017.


  1. GlaukosTheHammer

    GlaukosTheHammer Well-Known Member Full Member

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    Varazdat by Me and Jack Slack by BitsPlayerVesti threads linked.
     
  2. Vince Voltage

    Vince Voltage Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Illegible of Samos vs. Mike Weaver, prime against prime. Who you got?

    I think Weaver stops him late, but is then stoned to death for some reason.
     
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  3. BitPlayerVesti

    BitPlayerVesti Boxing Drunkie Full Member

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    I notice you list Varazdat as 385 AD, but online he generally gets listed as 365 AD.

    I'm pretty clueless on ancient boxing, is this a typo or is there some chronological disagreement?
     
  4. GlaukosTheHammer

    GlaukosTheHammer Well-Known Member Full Member

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    :lol: Damn it, I thought I covered that in the Varazdat thread. I'll have to reread that thread and give it an edit.

    I wouldn't say chronological disagreement so much as the vestiges of old information. The confusion centers around Moses of Chorene being the historian who recorded Varazdat as a victor in boxing. Apparently prior to 1994 Moses's account of Varazdat wasn't seen as a likely account because he claims Theodosius ascended Varazdat to the throne when all other sources and dates claim that was Valens, he doesn't distinguish which Shapuh he's referring to, no one's sure which island he means by T'ule, and what is corroborated elsewhere he seems to have borrowed. Given Moses doesn't give us dates historians were looking elsewhere to date his claims until in 1994 a plaque commemorating Varazdat as victor in boxing in 385 was discovered.

    David C Young "Formerly, the last certain and precisely datable victory was (probably) in 241 ad, when Publius Asclepiades of Corinth won the pentathlon. For centuries and even a decade ago, historians thought that the very last known Olympic victor probably was not a Greek, but an Armenian prince named Varazdates. Varazdates’ supposed victory is attested only in a murky Armenian source (Moses of Khoren, History of Armenia 3.40). Since Varazdates reigned from 374–8, conjectures place his rather doubtful victory, mentioned only in an Armenian history of Armenia, in the 360s ad. But the bronze plaque found in 1994 at the athletes’ clubhouse not only gives us new names, it also reveals that truly international Greek Olympic Games continued at least until 385 ad, much longer than any previous evidence suggested."

    Hippias of Elis first produced a list of winners in the fifth century B.C. The list was revised by others including
    Aristotle and Eratosthenes. In the third century A.D. Africanus produced a list which which ended in A.D.
    217. Eusebius Chronicle comes in the 4th century. Papyri 222 was discovered by Grenfell and Hunt in 1897. In 1994 a bronze plaque was excavated in the athlete’s clubhouse at Olympia which listed winners from the first century A.D. to A.D. 385

    :lol: yeah....gotta work that in...damn it.
     
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  5. BitPlayerVesti

    BitPlayerVesti Boxing Drunkie Full Member

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    I'm pretty sleepy and was having a little trouble reading TBH, I plan on rereading it, so I might have missed it.
     
  6. BitPlayerVesti

    BitPlayerVesti Boxing Drunkie Full Member

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    Another I'll have to look into

    Derby Mercury - Thursday 26 May 1785
    Last Week died, John Reddell, Grinder, the Champion of his Day in the Art of boxing, though stout, he was seldom known to be insolent or overbearing, and though in his Youth, he fought several pitched Battles, he always (as we are informed) proved victorious.
    On the Death of John Reddell, the cool and intre-
    pid Champion of his Day.
    The stoutest by all conquering Time,

    We find at length laid low;
    For he grim death, whom man ne'er beat,
    Has level'd at a blow.

    Edit:
    Oxford Journal - Saturday 17 November 1764
    On Monday last a Battle for Twenty Guineas was fought at Castle Bromwich, between Reddel and Dallaway, two famous Champions both of Birmingham; when Reddel proved Victorious, after an obstinate Contest of near Twenty Minutes ; in which he acquired vast Reputation as a Bruiser, as well for his coll Intrepidity, as the forcible Judgment with which he placed his Blows. There were a prodigious Concourse of People, and Bets depending on the Amount of several Hundred Pounds.

    Edit:
    Leeds Intelligencer - Tuesday 23 September 1760
    Died. At his seat in the County of Lincoln, Edward Dimock, Esq; who succeeded his Brother as Champion of England, about six Months since. His Brother in Fenchurch-Street will succeed him as next Heir to the Honour of Champion, also to a very large Estate
    Edit:

    Don't know if there's anything new here, but found this
    https://play.google.com/store/books/details?id=kjsGAAAAQAAJ&rdid=book-kjsGAAAAQAAJ&rdot=1
     
    Last edited: Sep 18, 2018
  7. escudo

    escudo Boxing Addict Full Member

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    @BitPlayerVesti @GlaukosTheHammer @Senya13 Hey guys i'm finding some discrepancies with Tom Johnson. Some sources say he "Claimed" the english championship in 1784 but here and other sources don't credit him until 1787. Any clarification would be helpful.
     
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  8. BitPlayerVesti

    BitPlayerVesti Boxing Drunkie Full Member

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    I've not looked into him yet, I'll have a look in a bit, I've been meaning to anyway. He seems oddly overlooked for being one of the most important.

    Though it's not really uncommon for their to be a gap between claiming it and more general recognition, I mean it's not like there was a sanctioning body or anything.
     
  9. escudo

    escudo Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Yeah I understand, but the sources on everything about him seem really controversial CBZ has him claiming the championship after his first pro fight, then again a year later having had fights in between, then finally in 1787 which actually seems quite concrete since all fights afterwards were for the title. Also his birthday was either 1750 or 1760, this makes a big difference when trying to write a narrative of the guy. Any help would be hugely appreciated.
     
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  10. GlaukosTheHammer

    GlaukosTheHammer Well-Known Member Full Member

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    I should have time to dig around and give you some bits on the weekend.

    In the meantime I'm pretty sure in 1787 he was working with Richard Humphries and Daniel Mendoza. Daniel has just a bunch of work done on him even if it isn't very popular, well a bunch compared to most 18th century boxers. I think if you look around Derby newspapers or Mendoza relative works you can probably work your way back from what you learn there.
     
  11. Senya13

    Senya13 Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Sorry, but I have had a surfeit of boxing research, won't be of help for a while, need to take a break and do something else. Happens from time to time. Waiting for Adam's new version of John L's bio and 2nd volume of JJ bio, maybe that'll revive me.
     
  12. InMemoryofJakeLamotta

    InMemoryofJakeLamotta I have defeated the great Seamus Full Member

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    Theagenes of Thasos vs Shannon 'The Cannon' Briggs of Brooklyn......who wins this battle of champions!!!
     
  13. Senya13

    Senya13 Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Pierce Egan wrote, that Tom "Johnson was now firmly established as the Champion", as the result of his victory over Bill Warr on January 18, 1787.

    In fact, that bout was ruled a draw by the umpires.
     
  14. cross_trainer

    cross_trainer Liston was good, but no "Tire Iron" Jones Full Member

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    Pierce Egan is an 18th century way of spelling Bert Sugar.
     
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  15. Senya13

    Senya13 Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    The strange part is after I mailed this correction to Johnson's record to Tracy Callis 8 years ago, he added the "assistance provided by", but forgot to change the result (a draw, like I said) and the duration (2 hours 20 minutes) of the bout.
     
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