Heavyweight Champions from Ancient to Present (WIP)

CBZ is my base for bare knuckle fighters. I know Tom Johnson from some anecdotes about Mendoza at best so I don't have the knowledge to challenge their narrative. Just for clarity, I used the FHW for the ancients and boxrec for modern dates.

Shelton just skips right over the entire period. From Slack to Mendoza.

Pugilistica is vague and just says something that basically means in 87 no one could be produced locally to defeat Jackling so they got Warr from Bristol. Then it gets into Mendoza and Humphries while oddly jumping back to talk about Love for a while. Pugilistica does seem to reflect the claim narrative though. Seems like after he fought Stephen Oliver either he claimed to be champion or folks did for him. Folks tried to find someone to whoop him and after a good search and a lot of fails they recognize him as champion.

I'm gonna do his thread using Rob Snell's narrative. I'm just a fan of his writing really and everything he has down seems to check out with the basics, Pugilistica and Boxiania. I didn't check anything else because it's kind of a deviation from what I was working on and the basic narrative is repeated through reputable sources so I'm inclined to believe it. Unless you want the exact dates and all that jazz I reckon the basic narrative is Johnson was very good during a low point in boxing. The fancy seems skeptical of giving him the crown but is impressed by his dispatching an older well respected fighter, oliver, and with purpose looks to find a fella who will really push Johnson, Warr. Johnson whoops him and no one disputes his superiority. The only thing that isn't obvious there is the way older fighters are thought of. Back then they felt his age had hardened him, Oliver being old isn't meant to be the deficit we see it as. I think Snell covered that, if not it's in Pugilistica.

I think that's your answer but if you want more and better research I'll get to it.

 

Yep, I'll do this from the hip, but, ya know, if it's not good enough let me know and I'll put more effort to it.

Basically anything pre Yankee Sullivan is obscure at best because of American politics. In America boxing was considered a violent foreign import not fit for American society. It was used similarly to "They take our jobs" and Mexico today. It was an anti-immigration political point, and the pious chruch going folks in America were very much against boxing as well. So when fights took place in America, or for example when Moly went to the UK, not many if any papers would cover that stateside because their readers would of turned on them. America has no fancy at the time, no upper class support. America's boxing support is pretty exclusively held by poor laborers and such in bars and whatnot.

Yankee got pretty famous going from bouncing between America and Europe. He beat some good fighters here and there and made his money beating up folks who voted for the wrong man. There's a name for it, but I forget it. Anyway, Yanks is the man who was talented enough in English boxing to hang and rough enough in America rough and tumble to hang. Yanks is your first famous boxing figure in America.

People are still very much against boxing but they're far more aware of it during Yankee then say Deaf'Un. Yankee second for a Lily against a McCoy. Lily was a foreigner....booo...McCoy was American born American, yay. Lilly killed McCoy, went to Europe. Yankee stood trial, was forbidden to fight again.

Tom Hyer comes in as Young America. Americans see him as the national front. Yankee is Yankee when fighting a limey but not when fighting an American born American...now he's a dirty Irish.

Basic sentiments went from Boxing is a terrible import from europe that stands against god and Americas good nature to Boxing is a viable and honorable means of settling disputes that would otherwise be handled by gun and blade. Hyer whoops Yankee and become just The MAN in America. Hung up sign saying come get it world and the World Title came into being for the first time.

Pretty sure Hyer's just the US champ like Mendoza's just the English champ but they, boxing fans and such, recognized the possibility of a world champion.

There is boxing pre-Yankee, obviously, but it's few and far between and doesn't go anywhere until Yankee.

I love the Moly story, and sure some black folk went from America to England post Moly for success in the ring, but not enough for us to claim there was any real America scene. I think Yankee being such a larger than life figure, bouncing around and getting into all manner of ****, was what set off American boxing.

Yankee ended up being hunted down and murdered by the vigilance committee in california...for boxing...

After Hyer boxing's doing well in the US.


Edit- considering Senya's posts I'm inclined to believe much of what I'm telling you is as much narrative handed to me as the Englishmen's stories were. You may very well find a fairly well known and respected champion between Tom and Tom by looking at papers from their time, but the narrative I've laid out is the accept narrative you'll find in history books.

That list is incredible to me. When I read about that era between the Tom it's always like reading about the era post Slack and pre Mendoza. Authors cover it with sweeping vague statements like " no one worthy " or " A few held the title but no one of note"

Shelton has Johnson under a no one of note style statement with no real detail. I respect Shelton, but Snell has me believing Johnson was a man of note. So, yeah, what I had to say is the basic history book narrative. I dunno if it's the truth, but I'm gonna take that list Senya posted, third column to the right if you didn't spot it, and look into the inbetweeners.

 

Goddamn incredible! Thanks man.

 

My Molyneaux story is very different. Not saying you're wrong I'm just sharing the version told to me. I'd have to look up by where and who if you're interested.

Tom Molyneaux was a freeman from Maryland who went to England for work during a time when the English were paying well to beat up foreigners. He made up a story about being a slave champion in America, got himself some fights and looked good doing it. Linked up with Bill Richmond of Mendoza School and got himself a fight with Cribb. Cribb and the white english folk cheated Moly terrible bad and out of embarrassment of their countrymen some of the fancy pooled their money to give Molyneaux a belt.

I think this author disputed the virginian slave bit because of the lack of evidence in the US coupled with the money meant to be involved. Apparently whatever is claimed to have been the bet must be wrong because the bet between slave masters was so high it would have had an affect on US economy let alone that particular owner.

 

I don't want to hang him on it because it could have been someone else, but I'm pretty sure that came from Shelton.

The problem is I read Shelton's Bare Knuckle and Cavallaro's Greatest Champion Who Never Was back to back and can't remember which I got what bits of the story from. It could very well be fragments of the two that I remember. Either way, both books are pretty good.

I'll look at those books and see what they're referencing. To be honest when I read about Tom vs Tom I was still very much just reading books so as far as newspaper accounts I only know what I've been told. I never actually looked for any myself.