Heavyweight division - Has it ever been as boring?

It almost looked like Wlad was toying with him. The whole night, all we saw was Ibragimov sticking out his right hand and Wlad batting it down with the right. Sultan was helpless in there, and if Klitschko had wanted to, he could have taken him out at almost anytime.

 

I think boxers have generally progressed in technique a great deal in the last century, but I also believe that if Jim Jeffries stepped out a time machine and into that ring last night, he would have beaten Wlad. Wlad seemed inhibited by Sultan's crouch and showed no ability to do anything other than retreat and clinch when Sultan rushed. A tough man like Jeffries would have Wlad on the defensive all night, I think, and would knock him out sooner or later and probably sooner. I also think Max Baer would probably beat him.

 

In "out of time machine" fights, Wlad would take all champions pre-Liston, probably Liston also, would take Frazier and give any of the others a very tough night. I agree these monster heavyweights are not always as exciting as their lighter predecessors but boring does not equal inept or ineffective. He still has a rare blend of speed, power and technique. Matched with his size, athletic abilities and work habits, this is a dangerous combination for any heavy ever.

I think the reaction to this one fight is just more of the same yank-based jealousy we've heard since the former Soviets started taking over. Their heavies are shite now, a fact they rationalize with tired, self-assuring arguments about how great the old days were and how all their best heavies are playing linebacker today (as if the NFL were invented in 2001). Well as man one said, look at the scoreboard. These former Soviets are putting millions in the bank because there is no one tough enough, talented or dedicated enough to take it from them.

 

Oh please.

If he was reluctant to open up on Ibragimov there is no way that he would risk doing so on Liston or Frazier. Dempsey, Louis, Marciano, Liston or Frazier would all smash him.

Klitschko is a fine fighter but lets not build him up into something he isnt.

 

And he hardly lost any round by using just that strategy.

I know it's a common thing to think in boxing that you're as good as your last fight, but Wlad doesn't always fight that way. He had no trouble opening up against Peter and Brewster, both of whom are bigger punchers than Ibragimov. And both of whom have a better defence than Baer. Baer's defence was pretty much non-existant.

 

I am American. I have no problem with Wlad being great but I just don't think he is. Perhaps size alone would win him fights against the champions of long ago, but I would really worry about his awkwardness in handling pressure--how he relies almost entirely on giving ground and clinching and seems not to have the boxing agility to go quickly from defense to offense. He also seemed reduced in power by having his opponent fighting in a crouch. His right didn't seem as effective punching downward. Sultan took several rights without being visably hurt very severely. He hardly looked at the end as if he had been in a fight at all.

I think Lennox Lewis, who is also not American, was much better. I think Lewis has an even chance or a better than even chance against all the old American champs. Wlad is another issue.

 

Since when does victory necessitate "opening up"? Much like Lewis (and per Manny's plan), Klit tenderizes his opponent before administering the coup de grace or as last night, just takes the lopsided decision.

Also, you seem to remember the above-mentioned greats on their best most scintillating nights rather than their many, many paltry affairs with the likes of Gibbons, Brennan, Farr, La Starza, Marshall, Bonvena, et. al. To be objective you must take the good with the bad, the scintillating with the workman-like. To paraphrase Georgie Benton, Don't worry about looking good, just win and you can look good the next time. All those great you list above would most likely be over-whelmed by Klit's offense and retreat into the shell that all his opponents seem to find once they are in the ring with him.

 

But Baer was taller and had a longer reach than Peter and Brewster. Wlad would have to worry about the right coming over the top and off what I've seen of him and his extreme caution, I think he himself has questions about taking a real punch. Certainly Wlad might pound Baer down like Nova did, but I wouldn't put a nickel on him off what I've seen.

Off the little film of Jeff available prior to his comeback, I think he rushed far more aggressively than Sultan did. Sultan sat on the outside waiting. I think Jeff would plow in and plow in hard with lefts to the body and head. Certainly Jeff's primitive defense raises issues and he never fought anyone within hailing distance of Wlad's size, but I think his toughness and aggression would give him the edge.

 

Yup. But there are those who will harangue about the McCall and Rahman fights. His career and attributes taken as a whole, I would put my money on Lewis to beat every heavy who bestrode the ring with perhaps the exception of a 66-67 Ali.

When all is said and done, we will see if the same can be said of Wlad. But in this "what have you done for me lately" culture, he get marginalized from the conversation for merely winning..

 

Well its better than the 1920's were the champ defends the title 2 times evey 3 years.

 

Baer could certainly end it with the right punch. But i want to re-express that this is one Wladimir fight - in which he still won nearly every or every round. Sure, Baer looked great knocking down Carnera several times. How good did Baer look against a washed up former journeyman lightheavyweight after beating Carnera? How did he look against nothing more than a good contender in Nova? How did he perform against Carnera the 90% of the time he didn't score a knockdown?


Edit: no personal disrespect, by the way. I think it's particularly interesting to see an old school fan react to this fight. I can tell your holding back in your criticism.

 

I think Wlad could jab, hook and cross before Max's windmill right hand came out of the stratosphere. The man was unskilled and launched his right hand on a very high arc. I think one look at film and Manny would have Wlad trained how to avoid and furthermore exploit this. Wlad KO3.

"No they wouldnt because they are not the mediocrities that Klitschko's methods have been so efective against."

Have seriously ever seen Louis' opponents in action? Or that bunch of malnourished cripples Dempsey fought? Or that string of mummies Liston made highlight footage over? These guys would be hard pressed to beat Kelly Pavlik, let alone even get in a ring with Klitschko. These are different times.

 

Baers chin combined with Wlads caution would ensure that if Wlad did win it would be by decision.

While Baer was no Sugar Ray he knew how to aply pressure, couldnt be hurt with an axe, and had a right hand somwhere between George Foreman and Earnie Shavers. If hegot wlad down like Peter did he would verry likley be able to close the deal.

I wouldnt personaly put any of your money down on Wlad if this fight was taking place.

 

Is this is different from, say, Jess Willard how?

As in the Willard who was the heavyweight champion of the world.

No one, NO one is going to so much as suggest that Willard might be half as capable as Wlad.