Heavyweight Fight of the Week #1: Marciano v. Walcott

Gazelle Punch · Nov 20, 2018

Love this fight. Won’t bother scoring it . Looks like everyone else’s cards. But I will say I would LOVE to see it in color!!!!!!

InMemoryofJakeLamotta · Nov 20, 2018

JackSilver said: ↑

Why? would lifelike color show up the lack of quality of these fighters from the b/w eras compared to modern fighters or maybe the reverse and enhance the clarity of how good they really were?
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We would get to see how great Tony Galento and Primo Carnera were.

InMemoryofJakeLamotta · Nov 20, 2018

Gazelle Punch said: ↑

Love this fight. Won’t bother scoring it . Looks like everyone else’s cards. But I will say I would LOVE to see it in color!!!!!!
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That and Conn/Louis. Also Louis knockdown of Buddy Baer when he made him spin in a circle. Imagine that in Hi def HD color.

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If AJ or Wilder made a 6'6 250 pound top rated contender spin around 360 degrees with a well placed right hand, people would be ready to hail them as the hardest punching heavyweight of all time.

BitPlayerVesti · Nov 20, 2018

Gazelle Punch said: ↑

Love this fight. Won’t bother scoring it . Looks like everyone else’s cards. But I will say I would LOVE to see it in color!!!!!!
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Has anyone colourised a full fight?

Gazelle Punch · Nov 20, 2018

BitPlayerVesti said: ↑

Has anyone colourised a full fight?
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I’ve searched the internet but couldn’t find any sadly. If someone has a link that would be awesome!

mrkoolkevin · Nov 22, 2018

My first time watching this fight front to back. A few comments:

Closer than I'd thought. I missed some moments in some of the closer rounds but I gave Walcott fewer rounds than most people seemed to. Might have had him up by one round.

In general I was underwhelmed by Walcott. His backfoot game seemed underdeveloped, which is too bad for him because it could have been a big advantage against a smaller, slower fighter like Marciano. Most of his work on the outside seemed ineffective (just weak, noncommittal jabs, mostly), probably because he was tired and conserving his energy (see below). Seems like he did most if not all of his real work when he was flat footed, right in front of Marciano, and within Marciano’s range. Spent too much of the fight trying to land single hard punches instead of putting his punches together. I think it might have been really difficult for Marciano to deal with him if he'd been throwing harder jabs and double jabs, and straight rights more. Despite the obvious stylistic differences, both men fought a lot of the time as what we would think of today as mid-range sluggers.

His matador style--where he waits for the other guy to attack and then tries to slip or back away from punches with his hands low--looks pretty when it works but I think he was too old to pull it off against someone with Marciano's engine. Clearly a very shrewd operator but had a bunch of bad habits/flaws that cost him in this fight--for example, keeping his hands too low (both when he dropped his jabs and when he was standing in close waiting to counter Marciano), and standing too square on the ropes at times. These are all reasons why Walcott ended up eating several flush punches from Marciano in the rounds leading up to the famous knockout punch.

I thought Walcott was visibly exhausted very early in the fight and really fought to conserve energy and bide his time for large stretches of the fight. You could also see it late in the fight, when Marciano was throwing wide, naked haymakers that were falling a foot short, and Walcott couldn’t seem to summon up the strength to take advantage and make him pay. If Jarrell Miller or someone looked that haggardly by the end of the 3rd or 4th round, it would be proof that modern super-heavies lack the stamina of the past greats like...Walcott. Showed a lot of heart and mental toughness (whatever that is) in trying to win the fight despite being tired though.

And for all the criticisms about Deontay Wilder's technique, he throws most of his rights *much* straighter than Walcott threw his. Walcott's looping counters worked against Marciano at times but they also unnecessarily placed him in harm's way.

Also:
Marciano intentionally headbutted an awful lot, and threw a few late punches, while only being warned once as far as I could tell.

The new-wave revisionism about Marciano being defensively skilled is a crock. Marciano wasn't a barroom brawler by any means but Walcott tagged him plenty when he had the energy and strength to do so. His offense and his pressure were the most important aspects of his defense. His crouching and rolling wouldn't pose too much trouble for a modern big man who can fight off his backfoot imo.

Marciano’s work rate for this fight wasn’t as insane as I’d been lead to expect either (and Walcott’s was flat-out anemic in several rounds). Would be interesting to see the compubox numbers.

Just my initial thoughts.

Pat M · Nov 22, 2018

mrkoolkevin said: ↑

My first time watching this fight front to back. A few comments:
Closer than I'd thought. I missed some moments in some of the closer rounds but I gave Walcott fewer rounds than most people seemed to. Might have had him up by one round.
In general I was underwhelmed by Walcott. His backfoot game seemed underdeveloped, which is too bad for him because it could have been a big advantage against a smaller, slower fighter like Marciano. Most of his work on the outside seemed ineffective (just weak, noncommittal jabs, mostly), probably because he was tired and conserving his energy (see below). Seems like he did most if not all of his real work when he was flat footed, right in front of Marciano, and within Marciano’s range. Spent too much of the fight trying to land single hard punches instead of putting his punches together. I think it might have been really difficult for Marciano to deal with him if he'd been throwing harder jabs and double jabs, and straight rights more. Despite the obvious stylistic differences, both men fought a lot of the time as what we would think of today as mid-range sluggers.
His matador style--where he waits for the other guy to attack and then tries to slip or back away from punches with his hands low--looks pretty when it works but I think he was too old to pull it off against someone with Marciano's engine. Clearly a very shrewd operator but had a bunch of bad habits/flaws that cost him in this fight--for example, keeping his hands too low (both when he dropped his jabs and when he was standing in close waiting to counter Marciano), and standing too square on the ropes at times. These are all reasons why Walcott ended up eating several flush punches from Marciano in the rounds leading up to the famous knockout punch.
I thought Walcott was visibly exhausted very early in the fight and really fought to conserve energy and bide his time for large stretches of the fight. You could also see it late in the fight, when Marciano was throwing wide, naked haymakers that were falling a foot short, and Walcott couldn’t seem to summon up the strength to take advantage and make him pay. If Jarrell Miller or someone looked that haggardly by the end of the 3rd or 4th round, it would be proof that modern super-heavies lack the stamina of the past greats like...Walcott. Showed a lot of heart and mental toughness (whatever that is) in trying to win the fight despite being tired though.
And for all the criticisms about Deontay Wilder's technique, he throws most of his rights *much* straighter than Walcott threw his. Walcott's looping counters worked against Marciano at times but they also unnecessarily placed him in harm's way.
Also:
Marciano intentionally headbutted an awful lot, and threw a few late punches, while only being warned once as far as I could tell.
The new-wave revisionism about Marciano being defensively skilled is a crock. Marciano wasn't a barroom brawler by any means but Walcott tagged him plenty when he had the energy and strength to do so. His offense and his pressure were the most important aspects of his defense. His crouching and rolling wouldn't pose too much trouble for a modern big man who can fight off his backfoot imo.
Marciano’s work rate for this fight wasn’t as insane as I’d been lead to expect either (and Walcott’s was flat-out anemic in several rounds). Would be interesting to see the compubox numbers.
Just my initial thoughts.
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I was disappointed, I had expected more from Marciano and Walcott. Very few jabs, Marciano's movement... many times crossing his feet, with his hands around his chest while Walcott didn't show any of the boxing skills I was expecting. And, before anybody mentions the black and white video, that has nothing to do with it. George Benton and Rubin Carter look great on black and white video, so did Ali in his 4th fight.

When fighters look poor, it's because of how they fight, it's not the video. I'd rather watch Benton or Carter warm up in the ring than watch Marciano and Walcott fight. I understand why Larry Holmes said what he said. It might not have been the diplomatic thing to say, but he didn't lie.

Marciano did not show any super human work rate or endurance, what stood out was how slow he was. Walcott didn't show anything impressive either. The fight was boring IMO, two fighters loading up and throwing one or two punches, then the other one taking his turn. There was no rhythm, few jabs, reaching instead of moving, off balance punches. Unimpressive fight, if you haven't watched it, don't waste your time.

mrkoolkevin · Nov 23, 2018

Pat M said: ↑

I was disappointed, I had expected more from Marciano and Walcott. Very few jabs, Marciano's movement... many times crossing his feet, with his hands around his chest while Walcott didn't show any of the boxing skills I was expecting. And, before anybody mentions the black and white video, that has nothing to do with it. George Benton and Rubin Carter look great on black and white video, so did Ali in his 4th fight.

When fighters look poor, it's because of how they fight, it's not the video. I'd rather watch Benton or Carter warm up in the ring than watch Marciano and Walcott fight. I understand why Larry Holmes said what he said. It might not have been the diplomatic thing to say, but he didn't lie.

Marciano did not show any super human work rate or endurance, what stood out was how slow he was. Walcott didn't show anything impressive either. The fight was boring IMO, two fighters loading up and throwing one or two punches, then the other one taking his turn. There was no rhythm, few jabs, reaching instead of moving, off balance punches. Unimpressive fight, if you haven't watched it, don't waste your time.
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Yeah, I think some highly exaggerated narratives about this fight and its combatants have emerged over the years and become part of the conventional wisdom of classic boxing. I hope more people take the time to (re)watch it because I would be very interested to see more analyses (especially from those who haven’t been involved in our previous arguments about these fighters).

Unforgiven · Nov 23, 2018

It's a great fight. They were very evenly matched and were trying to punch each other's lights out. The finish is deservedly considered a classic KO. What's not to like ?

I've always thought it was much closer than the judges had it, even if I assume the missing round scores to Walcott.

PhillyPhan69 · Nov 23, 2018

Rd 1 Walcott
Rd 2 Walcott
Rd 3 Marciano

I get tired of the old vs new debates on here...but 1 thing I don’t see anymore is 2 guys hammering away like this very often over the years.

Walcott shows some nice power, and while I don’t think Rocky was really hurt on the punch that staggered him or dropped him Walcott is bringing some heat. Walcott seems to be matching him in the infighting although in the 3rd he seems to clinch rather than engage in there as much. Marciano gets full body torque in generating some powerful hooks, the rib shot in the 3rd looked fierce. Rocky does a nice job using the jab and feint to get inside, not really scoring with it, but using it to set up and get in position effectively.

Good fight

Rd4 Rocky
Rd 6 Rocky

Man rock is just hammering away in rd 6 and Walcott looks tired

PhillyPhan69 · Nov 23, 2018

Colonel Sanders said: ↑

What's the point of scoring a fight that ended with a brutal KO I wonder.
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Just to compare notes and observations...feel free to share observations and no card....as you said the card will prove irrelevant. But there is a lot of back and forth to evaluate.

Jel · Nov 23, 2018

A pleasure to watch again, particular after watching the DLH-Trinidad and DLH-Whitaker fights earlier in the week. I didn’t bother scoring this one though and just enjoyed them throwing the kitchen sink at each other. I’d forgotten how good this was.

Sure, Walcott was ahead before Rocky lowered the boom in the 13th but in the 12th it felt like Marciano was fresher and Walcott was tiring. Had Marciano not got him in round 13, I think he’d got him in the next.

It’s definitely one of the 10 greatest heavyweight title fights and maybe top 5 too, along with Dempsey-Firpo, Louis-Conn and Ali-Frazier 1 and 3.

Where would you guys place it?

PhillyPhan69 · Nov 23, 2018

I used to have this fight but got rid of my collection about a year ago. I can’t remember if my copy had a round 5 or not?

Does it exist and is just missing from the YouTube version? It seems the fight was originally shown in full. Most of the guys on this site scored round 5 while 1 does not? So does round 5 exist?

https://www.eyeonthering.com/boxing/jersey-joe-walcott-vs-rocky-marciano

mrkoolkevin · Nov 23, 2018

PhillyPhan69 said: ↑

Man rock is just hammering away in rd 6 and Walcott looks tired
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Yeah, Walcott looked tired for most of the fight. Seemed like he might not make it to the second half of the fight a few times.

Unforgiven · Nov 23, 2018

mrkoolkevin said: ↑

Yeah, Walcott looked tired for most of the fight. Seemed like he might not make it to the second half of the fight a few times.
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He definitely gets a second wind from somewhere.
He really opens up on Marciano in the 11th.

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Heavyweight Fight of the Week #1: Marciano v. Walcott

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Heavyweight Fight of the Week #1: Marciano v. Walcott

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