Heavyweight King

Well, I suppose most agree that it would be Louis, if anyone. They are quite clearly the top 2.

 

honestly if marciano had just beaten Moore Charles 2x Louis Walcott 2x Lastarza 2x Layne Valdez Baker Henry and throw in patterson win in 56........I could make a clear case of rocky # 1 all time. he would have NO holes in his resume and would have cleaned out every single dangerous top contender of his era. no one would then be able to critisize the size and youth of his opposition anymore either

 

Ironically Marciano would be my favourite over Valdes,Baker,and Henry,and if he had taken on Floyd inside a year of his actual retirement him too.
"Of all the words of tongue and pen ."
"The saddest are these, it might have been "

 

If Jim Jeffries hung around and beaten Jack Johnson, and perhaps Langford or McVea he would have a case for the No1 spot.

If Jack Johnson had rematched Sam Langford and perhaps beaten either Jeanette or McVea he would have a case for the No1 spot.

 

Ali is No. 1.

He never ducked anybody. Did beat everybody in his prime. And did rematch everybody that was worthy being offered a rematch.

 

Actually Ali's management ducked alot of fighters pre 1964. They refused to throw a young cassius clay in the ring with Harold Johnson, Eddie Machen, Cleveland Williams and Zora Folley in 1962-1963

 

I don't think that is ducking. That is just building up a young fighter.

 

Q49, you know a lot more about Marciano than I do. I just finished reading a biography written by "Tiger" Ted Lowry, who went the distance with Marciano twice, and claims that he should have received the decision in their first contest. He say's that fight took place in Providence and that the Providence Journal had him winning 6 of the 10 rounds against Rocky. Have you researched that particular fight yourself, and do you have any other accounts of it? I'm curious about it after reading Lowry's book.

 

Cmoyle,

I have researched the fight and discussed it personally with rocky marciano's brother Peter. I also discussed this fight with numerous knowledgable posters here. When I talked to Peter Marciano he told me "one of the biggest myths out there is that the Lowry fight was close. All lowry did was run away in the late rounds, rocky landed all of the big blows and wore lowry down. However The first Lastarza fight was very close." So Peter admits to the lastarza fight being controversial, but was quite clear to me in the tone of his voice that rocky won the lowry fight.

There are mixed reports on this fight. Some sources claim Lowry hurt Marciano badly early on and was close to knocking rocky out, then stopped throwing punches and allowed rocky back in the fight thus indicating a fix/dive. Some sources indicate the judges were already fixed by Weill so that no matter what Lowry did, the decision would go against him. I doubt this theory since Sam Silverman would ever nallow that to happen with his judges. Especially since he specifically brought Lowry to Providence to beat marciano. Promoter Sam Silverman, who was live at the lowry vs Marciano fight claimed "Marciano gave ted a bad body beating". The most genuine sources seem to indicate lowry swept rounds 1-4, and then rocky came back with his sustained body attack and wore lowry down with his workrate winning the next 5-6 rounds and pulled out a very close decision. I believe the providence journal did have lowry winning 6 rounds to 4, but opinions on to who won the fight were divided. The Promoter of the fight, Sam Silverman, who at the time was not a friend of Marciano's thought Marciano won the fight.

Here is what Promoter Sam Silverman had to say

"I thought Lowry was gonna lick Rocky. I was disguste with Al Weill, and wouldnt have minded getting rid of him. Weill wanted too much money. He was getting 25% of the gate, but the greedy guy wanted 35%. And Weill was looking to get Rocky soft fights now that he thought he had found something in Marciano. But I had to protect my club. Rockys fights were all legitimate hard fights. A lot of people were talking about how he was being fed setups. Maricnao could have lost any number of times in his early fights."

"You know, that dago looks like another Johnny Risko" Silverman told trainer Al Lacey after rocky beat lowry. "Hes a tough son of a *****. Hes gonna beat alot of good fighters. The kid gave Lowry a bad body beating."

Here is Tiger Ted's side from his Book

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My opinion: This fight could have gone either way. Defintley not a Robbery. Its quite apparent that Lowry won the first four rounds, then Marciano came back and took at the very least 5 out of the next 6 rounds(some say 6 out of 6). This fight very well could have been ruled a draw. Either war, Rocky was nowhere near his best at the time and was giving up a huge edge in experience to Tiger Ted. Rocky clearly won the rematch, and Lowry admits to it.

 

I believe that Louis already paralells Ali, and rate Louis at 1 and Ali at 2.

Given some of the other scenerios. Marciano with a win over Patterson and valdes would still fall short in many peoples minds, but would give even more ammo and a claim by Marciano supporters that he is deserving. I don't think it would get him there, but it would certainly close the gap and probably lock him at 3rd.

Frazier had he beaten Foreman (maybe 2X's) initially I would think that it would help alot, but only because George is seen as high ranked fighter currently. In the reverse situation had George lost to frazier and Ali, who are his best wins against??? Georges standing would plummet, and he would probably be seen alongside of a Norton or maybe a notch above. Add Frazier wins over Norton, Lyle, Shavers and he proabably battles with some guys for 3-5..the only way he could go higher IMO, is having won 2 of 3 agains Ali, and then he would be locked at #2 or 3 and might have a shot at 1.

Foreman had he beaten Ali, or rematched him and won he could very easily be considered in this conversation as well.

Tyson, I felt had top 5 potential. Had he not lost to Douglas (I don't think a win here helps much, but erasing the loss would be valuable!), beaten Holyfield and either Bowe of Lewis..He would certainly have an argument for top 5 probably around #3, again I am not sure that would allow him to overtake Ali or Louis, but certainly would add him to any discussion!

Holmes- had he beaten Page and been able to land decisions (I felt he earned btw) agains Spinks, even a loss to Tyson would not remove him from this argument, and had he bested Marciano's record and retired undefeated before fighting Tyson, some would claim he retired because he was afraid to fight tyson, but his resume would carry huge weight and bring him into these conversations.

A whole lot of what if's!

 

Holmes: Tate, Coetzee, Dokes, Page, Thomas, Tubbs

 

How did he duck them when he wasn't the champion?

 

careful matchmaking on the way up. Angelo Dundee did a FABULOUS job bringing Ali up and choosing the right matchups for him, not throwing him to the wolves too early. the first risk Dundee threw Ali in against was # 6 rated Dangerous Archie Moore, but ole mongoose was 46 at the time and dundee knew alis speed would carry him threw. He waited till after Ali beat Lavorante before he threw him in against moore stating "Clay looked spectacular in knocking lavorante out in 5. we figured he was now ready to fight archie moore."