Heavyweight Lineal Champions + Notable Contenders

Discussion in 'World Boxing Forum' started by lufcrazy, Apr 28, 2011.


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  1. Slacker

    Slacker Big & Slow Full Member

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    Following Vitali retiring on 9 November 2005, Wladimir basically cleans out everyone mentioned in rankings upon Vitali's exit, including 3 of the four reigning champions, as you can see here:

    WORLD BOXING ASSOCIATION
    OFFICIAL RATINGS AS OF DECEMBER 2005 - JANUARY 2006

    World Champion: NICOLAY VALUEV RUS

    WBC: HASIM RAHMAN Had previously KO'ed Lennox, 2008-12-13 loses to WLADIMIR KLITSCHKO TKO 7

    IBF: CHRIS BYRD Previously won due to VK retiring, 2006-04-22 loses by TKO 7 to WLADIMIR KLITSCHKO

    WBO: LAMON BREWSTER - 2007-07-07 loses via retiring in rnd 6 to WLADIMIR KLITSCHKO

    1. NOT RATED
    2. WLADIMIR KLITSCHKO UKR
    3. JOHN RUIZ USA
    4. RAY AUSTIN (LAC) USA - 2007-03-10 loses to WLADIMIR KLITSCHKO via KO rnd 2
    5 . JAMES TONEY USA
    6 . CALVIN BROCK USA - 2006-11-11 loses to WLADIMIR KLITSCHKO via TKO 7
    7. LARRY DONALD USA
    8. MONTE BARRETT USA - 2000-07-15 loses to WLADIMIR KLITSCHKO via TKO 7
    9. SULTAN IBRAGIMOV RUS - 2008-02-23 loses via UD to WLADIMIR KLITSCHKO
    10. DAVARYLL WILLIAMSON USA - 2004-10-02 loses to WLADIMIR KLITSCHKO via TD rnd 4
    11. SAMUEL PETER NIG - 2005-09-24 loses to WLADIMIR KLITSCHKO via UD
    12. OWEN BECK USA
    13. DONNELL HOLMES USA
    14. RUSLAN CHAGAEV UZB - 2009-06-20 loses to WLADIMIR KLITSCHKO via retiring in rnd 9.
    15. VLADIMIR VIRCHIS UKR


    Ring Magazine HW Rankings January 2006

    Title Vacant
    1. Wladimir Klitschko
    2. Oleg Maskaev - 2006-08-12 beats Hasim Rahman, 2008-03-08 loses by TKO in 6 to Sam Peter
    3. Samuel Peter - 2005-09-24 loses to WLADIMIR KLITSCHKO via UD
    4. James Toney
    5. Shannon Briggs
    6. Serguei Lyakhovich
    7. Lamon Brewster - 2007-07-07 loses via retiring in rnd 6 to WLADIMIR KLITSCHKO
    8. Nikolay Valuev
    9. Ruslan Chagaev - 2009-06-20 loses to WLADIMIR KLITSCHKO via retiring in rnd 9.
    10. John Ruiz
     
    Slacker, May 1, 2011
    Slacker, May 1, 2011
    #61
  2. lufcrazy

    lufcrazy requiescat in pace

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    For one, who listens to their rankings?

    For two even if we did they are only rated the top two by the wbc, an organisation who recently held arreola and solis above adamek, povetkin, chagaev etc.

    The rankings most commonly used throughout history are those of the ring magazine.

    Byrd was the ibf champ and rated above sanders. Vitali did not defeat byrd. Instead he avenged his brothers defeat rather than his own. 1 vs 2 has not occured since patterson and moore began a new lineage.
     
    lufcrazy, May 1, 2011
    lufcrazy, May 1, 2011
    #62
  3. lufcrazy

    lufcrazy requiescat in pace

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    Again, wrong. Wlad did not beat rahman when he was ranked the second best boxer in the world (he did beat him years later) nor did he beat maskaev, peter (did beat him years earlier and after but left vitali to take him whilst he was ranked number 2) and of course he is yet to beat vitali.

    As great as wlad is and as impressive as his resume is. For the last 6 years he has not faced his biggest challenger.
     
    lufcrazy, May 1, 2011
    lufcrazy, May 1, 2011
    #63
  4. bremen

    bremen Boxing Addict Full Member

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    He beat Chagaev who was #3 and I think we can agree that Vitali was/is not a challenger for Wlad as a fair fight can never happen between them.
     
    bremen, May 1, 2011
    bremen, May 1, 2011
    #64
  5. lufcrazy

    lufcrazy requiescat in pace

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    Not a challenger for wlad because he wlad is not the champion. But we can agree he's ranked number 2 and wlad is ranked number 1. Like you said, a fight never has and never will happen. This is why there is not true champ since lewis.

    Wlad has been the best since 05 but his reluctance to face the best ranked contender(rahman, maskaev, peter, vitali) stops him becoming the next champ.

    Wlad has achieved remarkable success during his career and has beaten a litany of top contenders in the last 7 years. We don't need to fabricate anything his place in history is secure. His reason for not fighting vitali is understandable. His reason for not fighting the winner of maskaev/peter is also understandable. However it prevents him being the true champion.
     
    lufcrazy, May 1, 2011
    lufcrazy, May 1, 2011
    #65
  6. Slacker

    Slacker Big & Slow Full Member

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    Are you serious?

    2005-09-24 Wlad beat Sam Peter. That was a two months before Vitali retired and Peter was rated similarly that time.I suppose if you are going to nit pick two months, you can, but that is silly.

    Peter didn't suddenly become a better fighter after Vitali retired two months after Wlad had just beaten him.

    After Vitali retired, or recently before, Wlad ransacked the division (as I illustrated above). He is absolutely the current Lineal Champion.


    The point I was making was:

    1. Vitali was obviously lineal champion after Lennox retired because
    a) He was clearly the best fighter in the division
    b) He nearly defeated Lennox and lost a controversial fight due to a cut while ahead on all score cards.
    c) He defeated the #3 fighter at the time (Sanders)
    d) The Ring crowned Vitali champion after defeating Sanders, and that should count for something.

    The Ring magazine in the May 2004 issue

    Lennox Lewis, Champion

    1. Vitali Klitschko
    2. Chris Byrd
    3. Corrie Sanders
    4. Roy Jones Jr.
    5. James Toney
    6. David Tua
    7. John Ruiz
    8. Wladimir Klitschko
    9. Fres Oquendo
    10. Mike Tyson
     
    Slacker, May 1, 2011
    Slacker, May 1, 2011
    #66
  7. lufcrazy

    lufcrazy requiescat in pace

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    He was rated top ten, them rankings are what I go off also.

    He became number 3 ranked after beating mccline and toney. He became number two ranked after beating maskaev (the previous number 2) he then lost to vitali (the current number 2)

    Look, we can both agree wlad's resume is excellent yes.

    Them rankings show vitali, byrd, sanders. So it was not 1 v 2.

    If you check the later years you'll see wlad also never faced his nearest challenger(understandable reasons).

    Basically it is as thus, throughout boxing history, the new champ gets declared when the top two guys fight (check the ratings in the early 30's and mid 50's.) Not 1 and 3, but 1 and 2.

    Is wlad the best heavyweight in the world? Absolutely. Has he met the criteria of becoming lineal champ (beating 1/2 whilst ranked 1/2) absolutely not.

    This isn't subjective at all, you show any opponent wlad beat who was rated 1/2 (at the time by the ring) whilst he was 1/2.

    Using them ratings you will find it never happened because he never faced maskaev in 07, peter in 08 nor vitali in 09.
     
    lufcrazy, May 1, 2011
    lufcrazy, May 1, 2011
    #67
  8. Cobbler

    Cobbler Shoemaker To The Stars Full Member

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    Dec 10, 2005
    Nobody thinks this makes you lineal do they?

    I'm pretty certain that absolutely no-one thinks that losing a fight by tko (sorry, 'nearly winning') makes you lineal.

    I won't say no-one thinks that beating the number three fighter makes you lineal because clearly some people do in some circumstances. The Ring, for instance. I think it's fair to say that the majority do not think that however.

    It did count for something. It meant he was Ring Champion.

    I'm struggling from this random collection of justifications to see what your criteria for lineage being established actually is?
     
    Cobbler, May 3, 2011
    Cobbler, May 3, 2011
    #68
  9. lufcrazy

    lufcrazy requiescat in pace

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    the main thing that changed my thinking is throughout history the new lineage has been established when 1 beat 2.
     
    lufcrazy, May 4, 2011
    lufcrazy, May 4, 2011
    #69
  10. kirk

    kirk l l l Staff Member

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    Cool thread Luf :good
     
    kirk, May 4, 2011
    kirk, May 4, 2011
    #70
  11. bremen

    bremen Boxing Addict Full Member

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    When was the last time in history when it was impossible to stage a fair fight between 1 and 2?
     
    bremen, May 4, 2011
    bremen, May 4, 2011
    #71
  12. lufcrazy

    lufcrazy requiescat in pace

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    Impossible for Vitali to rematch Byrd? Impossible for Wlad to unify with Rahman or Maskaev?

    Listen I'm not blaming Wlad for not fighting Vitali, only a muppet would do so. Even Peter because it was clear that Vitali was coming back to fight him.

    Calling a new lineage impossible is far fetched though as I gave them 3 examples.

    Wlad has been the clear number 1 since 05/06 IMO (wins over Peter and Byrd convinced everyone he was the best in the world) however he never fought the number 2 ranked fighter ergo never established a new lineage.

    It's ok, Wills, Jeanette, Norton where never lineal champs and are still ATG's.
     
    lufcrazy, May 5, 2011
    lufcrazy, May 5, 2011
    #72
  13. lufcrazy

    lufcrazy requiescat in pace

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    Cheers Kirk!
     
    lufcrazy, May 5, 2011
    lufcrazy, May 5, 2011
    #73
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