Heavyweight PED use, itemized

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by cross_trainer, Jun 16, 2022.


  1. cross_trainer

    cross_trainer Liston was good, but no "Tire Iron" Jones Full Member

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    Some bright spark has collected BMIs for the top 30 rated heavyweights annually (I assume Boxrec's ratings) from the 1920s until the mid-2000s. Results are interesting; they show a pretty steady BMI percentage up until the early 70s, at which point fighters begin a long, steady increase in BMI.

    https://boxrec.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=48797
     
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  2. Bokaj

    Bokaj Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Yes. And with a few exceptions, the HWs were still lean. If anything they looked more ripped because of more pronounced muscles.
     
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  3. cross_trainer

    cross_trainer Liston was good, but no "Tire Iron" Jones Full Member

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    Yes, although the 80s did see a rise in chubby guys as well. Or so the public perceived it. Junk food use increased at the same time as weight training (and presumably PEDs) did.
     
  4. Bokaj

    Bokaj Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Surre, Tubbs was always chubby, and guys like Page, Dokes and Witherspoon were often in questionable shape as well. But even in terms of lean weight they were big guys compared to most of the pre 70's crowd.
     
    Last edited: Jul 13, 2022
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  5. cross_trainer

    cross_trainer Liston was good, but no "Tire Iron" Jones Full Member

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    I agree. Heck, Liston was supposed to be a monsterman around 210.
     
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  6. cross_trainer

    cross_trainer Liston was good, but no "Tire Iron" Jones Full Member

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    It's also interesting to cross-reference the BMI explosion with the documentation in the mid-century Olympics. There's a book on the 1960 Rome Olympics, which Ali fought in. Even the Western weightlifters back then were a little skeptical of early steroids being useful. So I doubt those drugs had spread to elite boxers by 1960. The testing focused on stuff like amphetamines instead. True, the Eastern Bloc people were using steroids, but I doubt the Western boxing fraternity was in touch with Eastern Bloc sports scientists.

    Fast forward a bit, and the Olympics were definitely testing for steroids by 1976.

    Between those two points, heavyweight BMI starts its upward march.

    EDIT: Duran admitted injecting some kind of PED into himself against Viruet, which was in '75 IIRC. Ali gets thyrolar (not a steroid, but definitely an attempt at potion-brewing) in the late 70s. Hazelton adopts steroids in the later 70s. So the timeline fits pretty well. At least the early adopters in boxing are probably there by the time it's banned in the Olympics.
     
    Last edited: Jul 13, 2022
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  7. NoNeck

    NoNeck Pugilist Specialist

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    About to get sciencey here, but 80s heavyweights were born in the 50s and 60s. They and their mothers had excess food in comparison to previous generations. This causes changes in gene regulation that leads to bigger people, not just fatter.
     
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  8. cross_trainer

    cross_trainer Liston was good, but no "Tire Iron" Jones Full Member

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    BMI takes height into account. When you say bigger people, do the changes in gene regulation also improve muscularity as well as height / skeletal size?
     
  9. NoNeck

    NoNeck Pugilist Specialist

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    Yes. Everything is regulated for maximum size to deal with more calories and reduced risk of famine/starvation.

    You can look up “Dutch Winter” to read about how babies were born to metabolically survive famine but became predisposed to diabetes and cardiovascular disease when they grew up in excess.
     
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  10. Bokaj

    Bokaj Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    In the 1968 Olympics there were a lot of opening talk about steroids, since it wasn't illegal in any way. Rumours that Weste Germany had developed a super steroid etc, so by this stage it was no longer a curious thing for fringe sports such as weight lifting.

    Why you keep insisting that there were some master plan for Ali's Thyrolar, I don't know. His (incompetent) doctor said he prescribed it for hyperthyroid condition. Ali did overdose when he felt an effect from it, true, but nothing that I've seen point it to being the original plan to use it as a PED. The ethics of Ali's decision to take more than prescribed when he felt energised by them can be questioned, of course, but I see no reason to believe there was any more planning behind it.
     
  11. cross_trainer

    cross_trainer Liston was good, but no "Tire Iron" Jones Full Member

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    I don't think Ali was being unethical, since as far as I know Thyrolar wasn't a banned substance in boxing.

    I think he attempted to use it because he thought it was helping, but he used too much, and it backfired.

    I don't know what you mean by a "master plan." I'm not saying Ali got into a smoky room with Dr. Evil and the members of SPECTRE to write out a 50 page plan for taking over the world with Thyrolar. I think Ali used it because he thought it would help him. It didn't, because he used too much. Far from a "master" plan, this doesn't even strike me as a particularly good plan.
     
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  12. Bokaj

    Bokaj Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    That we agree with. I just understood you as that his doctor prescribed it for use as PED instead of because of an incompetent diagnoses. And that part I haven't seen any basis of. He seems to have just have been a an NOI appointment quack who was out of his depth.
     
  13. cross_trainer

    cross_trainer Liston was good, but no "Tire Iron" Jones Full Member

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    His doctor might have prescribed it as a PED, and I'm sure Ali would have been willing to take it as a PED if it had been offered as such. I am suspicious whenever an athlete's doctor gives him stuff that could help his performance if used correctly.

    Regardless, it initially seems to have worked as a PED, since it trimmed him down. But Ali overused it. So at some point it stopped enhancing his performance, and started hurting it.
     
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  14. Bokaj

    Bokaj Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Sure, he was a bad doctor, but it seems to me that he could have prescribed many better things than Thyrolar if intended as PED use. I'll leave it at that.

    As for economic growth and thereby more money to buy food, average height is a good indicator. It was increasing until ca 1990, but at a slower pace since the early 1900's: https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/annual-change-in-average-male-height

    The US saw it's highest annual growth between ca 1933 and 1945: https://www.statista.com/statistics/996758/rea-gdp-growth-united-states-1930-2019/

    Unlike most of the rest of the world it showed tremendous growth during WW2, so for Europe, for example, the great spurt in growth didn't start until after the war. The former Soviet Bloc and eastern Europe has had more of its growth after 1990.
     
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  15. cross_trainer

    cross_trainer Liston was good, but no "Tire Iron" Jones Full Member

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    Which other 70s PEDs would you recommend for Ali?