Heavyweight power (scale 1 to 10)

But you did say it wasn't rare for him to be a seek and destroy fighter. I'm saying it was.

I would describe guys like Tua, Ruddock, Foreman, Baer, Wilder, and Shavers to be seek and destroy fighters based on their average performances.

Less than 1/4 of Lewis fights he acted in a seek and destroy/slugger type of guy. Normally he was either an outside fighter using his full height and reach, or a boxer-puncher. He did not have the chin, stamina, and killer instinct to operate like a slugger on a regular basis (although he definitely had a mean streak to him when pushed).

Against Ruddock, it wasn't that he was bloodthirsty going for a KO from the beginning, he caught Ruddock with a very good shot and then decided he may as well try to finish it since Ruddock was on wobbly legs and had a dangerous punch. Against Briggs, kind of similar situation. Briggs had very poor defense and kept trying to trade and land bombs, Lewis caught him, and knew the ref would likely stop it if he scored 3 knockdowns. 90% of the time Lewis was very professional and kept a cool head.

 

Holmes 1st fight with Shavers was almost a full ten
years prior to his fight with Tyson.
Also Holmes hadn't fought almost two years prior
to the Tyson fight.
Sometimes theirs very valid reasoning why a young
up and comer like Tyson destroys the old gunslinger
like Holmes .
Was it really how hard Tyson hit or was it his ability to
simply overwhelm Holmes with his superior sharpness, speed
and aggression?
Shavers dropped and damn near decapitated prime Holmes, Holmes said Shavers hit him
harder. I can live with those facts.

 

For me there are different types of punchers wich were actually hard to compare.

1. The hip rotating puncher which usually generate much force from upper body, hip rotation...from the legs: Tyson, Morrison, Patterson, Tua...

2. The haymaker punchers which throw wild wide looping, technically unclean shots: Wilder, Shavers, Baer

3. The crisp punchers which throw solid 7,5-9 / 10 Bombs with much more ease: Louis, Moore, Beterbiev...even Marciano (although he looked clumsy)

Ofc we have hybrid variations of them and many more categories if you will: fast punching guys, combination punchers, counter puncher, arm punchers, slick punchers like Walcott, Robinson, Charles. All hard to compare. I mean Floyd Patterson wasn't the greatest puncher of all time, but the gazelle hook vs Johansson 2 would send almost every HW to sleep...maybe even Ali or Fury. But guys like Louis provided a high volume of solid sharp, crisp punches with so much ease. Then we have guys like Foreman or Liston which demonstrated that they can end the fight with almost any punch in almost every kind of execution. They can generate devastating force in almost any way / any technique.

 

I am just saying that this "less than 1/4" of his fights as a seek & destroy/slugger makes it not rare.
I do not debate nor ever thought that he was not more of a boxer puncher.

I would have to look at the Ruddock fight again to check that, but either way he ended up as S & D.
I really do not know that he could not have been S & D more often-his stamina was likely better than prime Foreman's at least comparable. He had 2 major instances with chin-one he may have won if it continued & likely was complacent, with Rahman he definitely WAS distracted by Hollywood/the movies, not getting there early for altitude.
He could have avoided at least one of those KOs & lossess, showed killer instinct...

Not that this style would have been better overall in most cases. I just believe he could have done it well.

 

These are very good categorizations!
I just am skeptical that any specific punch of Patterson would put most any HW "to sleep"-or even a KO.
Might be worth a thread.

 

Should Wilder be docked somewhat for really only having power in his right?

 

He has some left hook knockdowns/knockouts. But the majority are his nuclear right hand.

I think Holmes had more power in his jab than Ali. Ali flicked it and caused some sting and it had snap to it. But Holmes had a little more oomph that stopped guys in their tracks. I'd say Ali's jab was a 6, Holmes was a 7 in power.

Uppercut definitely goes to Holmes as well. I'd rate his about a 7.5 when he gets full leverage and weight on it.

But Ali definitely hits harder with his right cross and with combinations. That isn't even much of a debate. Ali has more than a dozen knockdowns with single right hand leads, sometimes even while moving backwards--which is very impressive since moving back actually decreases the power.

And like you said, Ali has stopped more durable opponents and ranked opponents. Despite his reputation as lacking power, he has some good names like Bonavena, Foreman, Frazier, Lyle, Quarry. Holmes didn't stop any durable fighters like them other than Smith whose a wide open target and never got knocked down either.

Holmes average shots are probably slightly above average in power, maybe 5.5-6. 7.5 when he gets all his weight behind his uppercut, but that's about it. Nearly every name/ranked opponent he faced he went the distance with other than chinny guys like Cooney and Weaver. I'd say Ali's average blows were as high as 6.5, everyone respect his punches. His flurries we're razor sharp and cause major swelling, cuts, black eyes, and snapped guys heads back. His right cross alone was at least a 7-7.5.

 

That seems fair. I'd say 7.5 for his average shots, 8 when he gets his weight into them.

Vitali has a high KO%, but if you look at his actual resume it's pretty bad. Mostly C level guys, no hopers, or older journeymen. Many of his opponents were stopped on their feet and he didn't actually knock them out or even down despite landing a barrage of flush bombs round after round (Areola, Briggs, Peter, Puritty, Sanders, Chisora).

He looks very strong and intimidating, but the results speak for themselves. He just wasn't a huge hitter. He lacked variety and snap in his punches, often just throwing the same type of monotonous straight shots over and over. He also often punched with his arms.

 

I mean if Chris Byrd says your brother hits 2-3x harder than you despite the fact he beat Vitali and lost to Wladmir, that's pretty damning evidence. Some boxers try to praise the power of the guy they beat, but Byrd was just being honest.

The Klitschkos are weird like that. I completely agree Wladmir would have KOd Lewis if he landed even half the number of flush bombs Vitali did. At the same time, if Lewis landed half his shots on Wladmir as he did to Vitali, Wladmir is going to sleep with or without a cut.

Emmanuel Steward had an interesting quote about them. He said Wladmir was made of clay, while Vitali was made of rock. It's easy to build a statue out of clay because it's malleable you can fashion it however you want, then you dry it and make it harder. But a clay statue breaks more easily.

Making a statue out of rock requires a lot more patience and is more difficult, but it's sturdier and less likely to break. In other words, Wladmir was much more talented and learned things quicker, but wasn't good at taking hits. Vitali was a slower learner, but was very durable and diligent.

 

Ali wore Bonavena down, it's not like he KO'd him with the first good punch he threw.
And the Lyle stoppage was premature and unjustified.

Vitali beat and KO'd men his brother Wlad lost to, that does not mean he hit harder. Everyone who knows a thing about boxing will tell you Wlad hit way harder than Vitali.
So stopping more durable opponents does not mean one hits harder.

 

BRILLIANT POST. And I completely agree with you. Louis and Tyson's effectiveness and the sheer volume of Marciano's punches is what made them look like bigger punchers than they are. But they do not have the highest one punch raw power.