Heavyweight Top Ten

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by mr. magoo, Mar 9, 2017.


  1. Legend X

    Legend X Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Oh I see.
    I never realized that.
    I'll take Wlad off my list and put Liston in instead.
    Wlad is a fraud. Thanks for enlightening me.
     
  2. Mendoza

    Mendoza Hrgovic = Next Heavyweight champion of the world. Full Member

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    McVey,

    Jack Johnson would have fired you long ago for representing him. Johnson backs out of a signed contract to fight Sam Langford!


    May 3, 1909 – The World (New York)

    Black Champion Proves He Tampers With The Truth.

    His Agreement to Box Before the National Sporting Club of London Was Signed with His Own Hand.

    He Tried to Shift the Responsibility to Others.
    World Produces Photograph of His Signed Letter - Opinion of Secretary of Club.

    By William P. McLoughlin

    Very few persons who have followed the course of Mistah Jack Johnson since he won the heavyweight championship of the world by walloping little Tommy Burns need to be told of the absolute indifference of the big negro to either truth or candor. Those, however, who like the man from Missouri, must "be shown" before they will believe and derive the most convincing proof of Johnson's dishonorable character from the letter which I print in this column and the photographic facsimile which accompanied that letter from London.

    It will be remembered that the moment Johnson was proclaimed heavyweight champion he began to suffer from what a facetious friend of mine would call "elephantiasis of the cranium," but which the erudite Kid Griffo describes as the "swelled cocoa."

    Dropped His Friends Overboard:

    Johnson as soon as he gained the title, had no further use for the men who had stood by him when he was hustling after a snack of pork and chicken. Sam Fitzpatrick, who went broke and kept on borrowing from his friends to grub stake Johnson in the vague hope of getting it back when he would succeed in working the negro into the championship class, was cast aside. Johnson gave no earthly reason for this act of gross ingratitude. Fitzpatrick the faithful had to beat it back to San Francisco from Australia with all his pockets turned inside out, while the slugger he befriended arrived with bulging pocketbook and a bushel of resin unerative contracts.

    More offers were made here. The negro promptly began to sidestep those to which he was already bound so as to hitch up with newer and more liberal ones. Right and left he disregarded his moral as well as literal obligations. So far did he go in this direction that in order to allay in some measure the popular indignation he began to worse than romance. He liked like the lamented Joe Mulhatton or Tom Ochiltree. He was worse than a gas meter. He blamed this, that or the other person for having signed contracts for him of which he knew nothing whatsoever.

    When he threw over his agreement to box Sam Langford before the National Sporting Club in London, he declared that he had never agreed to any such proposition.

    The Proof of It Is Here:

    I am enabled today to present a damming proof of the four-flushing negro's duplicity and bad faith. The photograph (next column) shows Johnson's own letter to the club, signed by himself, in which he makes the offer to meet Langford. The camera does not lie.

    Following is a letter from Mr. Bettinson, secretary of the National Sporting Club, which I received today:

    National Sporting Club, Ltd.,
    Covent Garden, W.C.
    April 23, 1909

    Dear Sir - I cabled you the other day that Johnson's statements were untrue, in consequence of several American newspaper cuttings I had received, in which he stated he repudiated Fitzpatrick's contracts, as if he had not any knowledge of what had been done.

    Of course you will see by the enclosed photograph, that Johnson was absolutely personally responsible. In fact, the suggestion to box Langford for the same purse, win or lose, with Burns, came from him; and at the time, I thought it very decent of him to make the offer. The club did not ask him to do so, and I am quite certain we should always have been willing to have made a bigger offer, in the event of a victory over Burns. However, he is a ******, and a very bad type of one; and, as far as the club is concerned, we do not wish to bother about him, but when I see him making lying statements in the American Papers, I think it only right that I should repudiate them.

    I think Johnson is throwing away the substance for the shadow, as he had 6,000 pounds worth of contracts booked up in London for six months of easy work. Of course, he may get more money in American, but I think this is pretty good booking for a black man.

    I am pleased to say, we have got a good English champion. He is a big fellow, fourteen stone, and can really box well. He knocked out Moir in 2 min. 47 sec. on Monday evening last, and could do it at any time when called upon. Personally, I think he would have a great chance with Tommy Burns. How he will fare with Langford, I do not know, but he is very confident that no twelve-stone man can beat him. As a matter of fact he has seen Johnson, and think he could beat him. Still, we must wait to see how he goes with Langford before saying too much.

    Sincerely yours,

    A.F. Bettinson

    No wonder Johnson is hissed and hooted at his every appearance on the stage here. Lovers of boxing the world over are naturally lovers of fair play. There is no other game which is so keenly sensitive to the touch of dishonor, and when there comes along a faker he generally reaps the reward for which he has sown the seen.

    Langford is little better than Johnson. He has tricked and "pulled" and faked in the ring whenever it suited the purpose of his backers. He has hopped aside when Johnson almost caught with the goods on him.

    I should like to see the two of 'em inside the ropes, and I'd like very much to see them wind up like the snake who got his tail in his mouth and swallowed himself holds bolus. I'd send a couple of wreaths.
     
  3. mcvey

    mcvey Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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  4. KuRuPT

    KuRuPT Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Disagree here bud, I think Johnson would dominate him again. Sam got bigger, but so did Johnson. They both gained about equal weight filling out their bodies to what they became. Johnson completely thrashed him with ease and actually faced the guy. So I would respectfully disagree that they were even in the same ballpark as Dempsey - Wills
     
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  5. mcvey

    mcvey Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Clay Moyle, considered the foremost expert on Langford, estimates that 175/180lbs was Langford's optimum weight. Langford scaled around 158/160lbs for Johnson,there was no weigh in, Johnson was estimated to be about 187lbs.Johnson later said he was in the best shape of his life for the Jeffries fight for which he weighed 208lbs.
    Taking these figures as reasonable estimations we find Langford was about15/20lbs below his optimum weight,Johnson about 21lbs so I believe one's advantage would cancel out the other,making it a non issue.
     
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  6. mcvey

    mcvey Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    For what its worth both John L Sullivan and Stanley Ketchel both thought Johnson was always too much for Langford. We can safely assume Langford improved after their lone encounter.I suggest that with 20 +lbs of muscle on him and the experience and confidence in being champion, so did Johnson!
     
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  7. mcvey

    mcvey Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Johnson made decent money on the stage in the UK and boxing exhibitions,one of them, against Ben Taylor close to me.Peggy Bettinson was a thorough going racist and notoriously mean with purses.

    You missed the whole point as usual, Bettinson wanted Johnson to defend the heavyweight title for a paltry $4000.

    After challenging Burns and getting a derisory $3000 for doing so ,whilst the Canadian pulled down a record breaking$30,000 Johnson , now in the driving seat ,announced he was not going to defend his title for less that Burns had received.He reneged on his agreement with NSC saying the circumstances were now entirely different and he did not feel any obligation to honour his contract.What was different was that he was now driving the car instead of running behind it.
    I'm still waiting for verified offers of $30,000 for a title defence of Johnson against Langford,it's been about a year since I first asked you to provide one.
    We both know none will be forthcoming from you so your posts here have been a lot of bombastic hot air with no substance to them what so ever .Nothing new there then!
     
  8. Bokaj

    Bokaj Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    For me, a champion always has to face his best contenders to be a legitimate champion. I accept that there were mainly economical reasons behind Johnson not facing Langford, but that doesn't matter to me. A champion defends against the best out there or he's not really a champ. Johnson did nothing really worthwhile in a sporting sense after taking the title from Burns in my book. Flawed as Dempsey's reign was, it was probably better than Johnson's. Johnson had a much better run to the title, though.
     
  9. Mendoza

    Mendoza Hrgovic = Next Heavyweight champion of the world. Full Member

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    Langford was far more impressive vs the same guys fought from 1909-1914.

    Sam at age 20, roughly 156 pounds wasn't mature enough body wise to beat a more experienced ( in years fought ) Johnson who was older, and about 30 pounds heavier in 1906.

    So we have a jr middle vs what then was a heavyweight.

    When Langford matured, he was 170-200, the same size of men who defeated Johnson. You have to see Langford KO Flynn cold, give Lang no quarter, or pound Jeannette to appreciate how good he was. IMO, he's more impressive on film than Johnson.
     
  10. mcvey

    mcvey Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    No verified $30,000 offers for a Johnson v Langford fight then?LOL
     
  11. mcvey

    mcvey Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    The underlined simply is not true.
    1909 Langford drew with Sandy Ferguson whom Johnson played with multiple times.
    1910 Jim Flynn beat Langford ,Johnson stopped Flynn twice.
    1911 Langford drew with Sam McVey , and lost to him ,Johnson easily beat him 3 out of 3, the last time by ko.
    1913 Langford drew with McVey again.
    1914 Langford drew with Battling Jim Johnson whom Johnson had drawn with while fighting with a broken arm!
     
    Last edited: Mar 14, 2017
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  12. KuRuPT

    KuRuPT Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Game, set, match... Well done Mcvey
     
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  13. mcvey

    mcvey Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Thank you K!
     
  14. mcvey

    mcvey Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    ,
    Johnson would always be about 30lbs heavier if both came in shape, at 200lbs Langford was fat. As one improved so did the other.Langford had more fights when they met, he just wasn't well matched against Johnson. No short swarmer beat Johnson ever.
     
    Last edited: Mar 14, 2017
  15. Perry

    Perry Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    The entire premise that Johnson was afraid to fight Langford or that Dempsey was afraid to fight Wills is a bunch of horse****. If one really examines both situations either behind the scenes buttons were being pushed to prevent the bout from occurring or the $ being offered were less than market. These were two ATG hwt champions and they were afraid to fight no one.
     
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