Heavyweight Tourney: Rd 3: Gene Tunney .Vs. Rocky Marciano

my2sense: Tunney fought over forty times between 1920 and 1923 alone but never took on Norfolk. So you give him a pass with amateur a -b -c logic ? Is your point that Norfolk was not a great fighter ? You discount a fighter at the end of their career when they are fighting half blind ?

 

Are you suggesting that certain fighters were afraid of other fighters? This seems far fetched for guys who fought that many fights in their careers. I think there were other factors/powers to blame.

Furthermore, when the best black and white fighters did not meet, it also lessens the black fighters' legacy, not enhances it.

 

No, i'm not suggesting that Marciano was faster than Greb, and i don't know what made you think that. However, Greb was known for his pressure fighting, not for being a speed demon. And in that sense he certainly has a lot in common with Marciano, the difference being that Rocky had lead in his fists, Greb did not.

 

This thread reconfirms my belief Marciano could well be the most underrated and unappreciated heavy ever.

 

Greb was definately known as a speed demon. Speed, stamina and a great chin were his three greatest assets.

 

Was Norfolk pushing for a fight with him then?

No, I give him a "pass" because he fought Greb(five times), Gibbons, Carpentier, Levinsky, Loughran, Delaney(twice), Spalla, Risko, and Jeff Smith (among others) in the span of just a few years, while pursuing a fight with either Dempsey or Wills. Complaining because none of those opponents happened to be black is just senseless and childish.

Norfolk was half-blind for half his career as a contender. If you're going to make that an issue, then it undermines your whole point altogether.

 

Since when is it a priority to make sure you have opponents of certain races on your record?

 

My2Sense: Horse **** answer. He drew the color line, plain and simple. Noting that a fighter drew the color line because in a career of 70 plus fights he never fought a non-white fighter is far from childish. Your argument of denial of the obvious is transparent and very weak.

A fighter should be judged by both who he fought and who he did not fight ... Dempsey will forever be tainted for ducking Wills and Tunney will also be judged for only fighting white fighters.

 

My point is that Wills will likewise be tainted by never fighting Dempsey. I do not believe that Dempsey personally ducked Wills, but rather it was his management, certain politicians, potential gates and Wills' inability to come up with the proper funds that led to the two never meeting.

 

Seamus: Not exactly the same as Wills called out Dempsey endlessly while Dempsey basically avoided the subject. I doubt Dempsey was scared but he was definately not pushing for the fight.

 

This particular topic has been rehashed on these boards ad nauseum and I don't want to reopen this can of worms. I'll just say I like the Dempsey story though I do not share in the slobbering hero worship of him. However, from what I have read and absorbed over the years, Dempsey made a couple legitimate attempts to make the fight only to be railroaded by various circumstances, including his Ricard and including once the Wills' camp not coming up with the necessary funds as agreed in the contract. Was Wills the bigger loser here financially? Sure. However, in regards to legacy, both guys lose, i.e. it's not as though Wills gets some sort of phantom victory over Dempsey because he could not get him in the ring.

 

I think Tunney had the style and tools to beat Marciano. He had faster feet and hands than anyone Marciano ever faced, and he was as skilled/smart as anyone Marciano faced, plus excellent 15 round stamina and a lot of heart. If LaStarza can do as good as he did against Marciano I think Tunney can do far better. Close decision for Gene.

 

No, your failure to answer a very significant and basic question is.

Again, when was Norfolk pushing for a fight with Tunney in the time frame you listed?

So using that "logic", is Wills tainted for all the white fighters he turned down?

 

Seamus: No, Wills is the total loser as he was number one contender for Dempsey's entire reign and never got the shot. I agree Dempsey was not scared however he did not seriously push for the fight either or it would have been made. Today only boxing historians even remember Wills ever existed.

M2S: Don't know if you are serious here.

Of course Norfolk pushed for a fight w Tunney. He was ignored. Greb at least had the balls to fight Norfolk and had the two toughest fights of his prime years.

Is Wills tainted for ducking white fighters ? Which ones in particular ? Do you mean Fulton who he crushed or Firpo who he diced ? Do you mean when in his mid thirties after being jerked around for half a decade he did not jump to fight Tunney in an elimination when he was already promised a title shot yet again? I answer is that how you try and revise history ? Because he was black he had no right to any fairplay or be called a coward ? Wow!