Heavyweight Tourney: Rd 3: Gene Tunney .Vs. Rocky Marciano

This is actually a very, very interesting fight. I think that most people have missed the intrigue and closeness of this fight.

For a start we are looking at two guys who both retired as World Heavyweight Champions. Both wills to win are unquestioned. Neither fighter has ever met a fighter that they havent bettered in a fight or series of fights, ever.

Marciano is generally regarded as the better champion because he was a little heavier, has a bigger KO punch and is more proven against heavyweight fighters. It is a little ironical though because the Dempsey that Tunney beat twice, while not the best version of Dempsey, was still probably (or at least arguably) a better fighter than any fighter that Marciano fought. That includes Walcott, charles, Moore or Louis.

Even with the great Marciano chin, it is almost certain that the combination that Dempsey dropped Tunney with is a lot harder than any combination that Marciano ever got hit with. And Tunney got up and kept winning the fight. Tunney has every right to feel aggrieved at people who think he cant handle Marciano's power shots and doesnt have a heavyweight chin. He does and it is better than most (including me most of the time) think it is. To put it into perspective, his chin is far more proven that Muhammed Ali's was (before the exile).

So, how does this fight go. We know that Tunney has a big reach advantage, so he uses his legs, like he does and moves and jabs and strikes from a distance. We also know that Tunney is a hell of a lot quicker than Marciano. This means that with the reach and speed advantage Tunney will be landing and landing heavily, particularly in the early rounds. Marciano we know will constantly keep stalking and moving forward. It doesnt matter how much he is hit, he fights the same way. Tight defence, and burrow in with clean shots and a high workrate. The difference here to usual is that Tunney will not be there to be hit, and Marciano will be left chasing him, like John L was to corbett. Eventually the runners shots must hurt and slow down the chase, even one with as great a stamina as marciano has. Marciano has fought other boxers, Charles is probably the best example, but he wasnt as big a mover as Tunney and he was actually ahead on points before he was stopped (from my recollection).

I think that there is one thing for certain in this fight. At some stage Marciano will be hit with the same task that he had when his nose was split in the Charles fight. Score a knockout or you lose the fight. I think that a Marciano points decision is not in the slightest bit realistic. I think that the problem is that Marciano will have been hit hard often and constantly in the early rounds. This has to have an effect on any fighter and Marciano is no different despite his legendary stamina. Generally he was able to rely on wearing fighters down with his work rate and eventually catching them enough with his great power shots.

But as Tunney piles up the points, it really does seem to leave Marciano with more and more of a punchers chance. In these fantasy matches, people tend to forget that he is not just piling up the point, but with each round, it means that he is also wearing down the opponent. And if he does land the hail mary, we know from Tunney Dempsey that Tunney is able to get up, box it off, and most importantly start winning rounds again, leaving Marciano in nearly the same situation as he was to start with. Dont forget that if Tunney Dempsey were both 15 rounders, then Tunney would have KOd the aging Dempsey.

Marcianos biggest weapon is his stamina and workrate but this isnothing that Tunney hasnt seen before. He handled Grebs workrate, so he should be able to handle Marcianos. In this particular case, i think that Marcianos chances are limited to a punchers chance. And it is a puncher trying to catch a fast and elusive opponent. It definitely isnt possible, but the reality, imo, is that all Tunney needs to do is last the distance. Something he did against every single opponent. I am going to go with an upset. Tunney by Points decision, with Marciano on the brink of his first defeat, but perhaps also having tunney out on his feet a few times during the fight.

 

Why in the world would he be hit more regularly than the three boxers you mentioned? He was faster and had better leg movement than all three. What makes you say he would be hit more. I actually think he has a far better utilisation of the reach advantage he enjoys against Rocky (whicdh is actually about the same advantage as Klitchskos enjoy against some of the "cruiserweight" atgs) than these guys do because of this movement. Rocky will need to chase him, and this means he will be off balance and open to the straight right hand of Tunney at many times. I dont see how Rocky can land as often or as easy on Tunney as the other three.

 

All jokes aside ,I have a problem deciding the outcome of this fight.
Tunney dominated a somewhat diminished Dempsey in two fights , could he do the same to a prime Rocky?
Marciano was slower afoot than even a diminished Dempsey ,and his hand speed also was only average at best,he made up for this by sheer bulldoggedness,[I know its not a word ,but still].

Stamina is all very well, but if your facial tissue starts to protest at the amount of jabs and hooks being landed on it,it can be an unused asset.

Tunney was very fast afoot ,took a good shot and hit a lot harder than most realise, he was accurate with his punches and knew how to tie a man up,and render him safe,could he contain a Marciano,who came at you from unexpected angles?

I think I would like to hear some other view points .

 

I don't agree with this I am afraid.

Walcott originally fought quite aggressively against Marciano, till he realised ,it was going to be a long night.
In their first fight Charles too, met Rocky head on at times.
Tunney would NEVER do this, he fought with his head at all times.
Tunney is the poster boy for winning on the back foot when he fought at heavyweight, where you got the impression he would attack from, I cannot imagine?
Fighting Tunney ,there is a very poignant moment ,when Jack realising he can't catch Tunney ,motions him to come in and fight,as Dempsey himself would have done, the ice cold Tunney refuses the offer .

 

How does that statement get connected? Marciano chin with Dempsey combination on Tunney? I don't see the point of this statement.

You think Marciano has a freak cut nose incident with 1 round left to KO his man?

By the way, this was one of the super-fights on the Ali vs Marciano DVD. I listened to the radio call. Marciano won a close fight I believe. I should re-listen to it and come back here.

I think Tunney as accurate as he was (I don't buy the power that Mcvey tries to sell but he did hit good for a LHW) isn't going to be jabbing Marciano as easy as you think. He's upright, and Marciano will dip and he'll find it harder to jab than the more upright Dempsey that just pounced forward. Marciano will stalk more, and maybe he can outpoint him but for 15 rounds? I don't think so. Marciano is more durable and harder hitting than Dempsey. Yes, slower on foot and in hand speed although his hand speed is underrated. A prime Marciano is too hungry and bull-like to lose. Tunney can't deal with Marciano in the clinches. A past prime Dempsey that lost all his hunger is a different animal.

Marciano wears him down. I think that's the safe pick.

 

I didnt spell that one out to clearly. I was basically just comparing the two chins. Most people say Tunney s chin is not proved at heavy, but i was making the point that he has come through a bigger test than Rocky ever has. Both fighters have great chins.

No, but i think that if this fight goes the distance, Tunney wins on points. If Marciano wins, i think that it is a desperate KO in the last few rounds. In fact, if he does win, it, i think that the last round would look very much like the last round of Louis v Conn. When needing the KO because of a cut or any other reason, Marciano has always produced it, but i think that Tunney may prove a difficult person to KO. At least far more difficult than many seem to assume.

I think you are right that it is a safe pick, but i think that when two greats meet, more often than not fights seem to go to the distance and it is very risky to rely on a KO to beat another ATG.

 

Oh ok, I agree with this. A Rocky KO isn't very plausible, though.

Alright, that's fair. So you're really liking Tunney's chances here? You consider him a comfortable favorite I'm inferring.

That's a good point, especially considering how mobile and how much on the back foot Tunney is. I don't think Tunney is going to be offensive-oriented enough, nor active enough to really do Rocky a lot of damage. He can try boxing him (And collect points of course), yes, but Rocky's going to prove to be a non-stop punching machine. This will prove an arduous task for Tunney - likewise Marciano too.

I don't think he can run forever though (Move, call it what you will). Weren't both Dempsey fights 10 round fights. Imagine 15 rounds with the Rock. I consider Marciano to be probably the one of the toughest man to come out of a decision alive let alone winning. Frazier might be the hardest to do it with. That's debatable and another discussion to be had. But that's my point, though.

 

Frazier is a very interesting analogy. Now i think about it, you can argue about levels of class, power and speed, but if i were to pick a fight that this fight resembles, I think that Frazier/Ali is very close to what this fight is like. At this particular point in time, i still like tunney particularly with a decision, but i am starting to at least see what a Marciano points decision would be like. What do i know though, if i were taken back in time and asked to pick a winner of ali/Frazier, knowing everything i know (exept the result of ali frazier 1, i think i would probably take Ali, maybe even comfortably).

 

Tunney never fought the likes of Marciano, Greb put the pressure but was no where near Marciano in the power dept. I see Tunney being very competitive but the difference between Dempsey and Marciano was Dempsey faded as the fight wore on while Marciano got stronger especially at that point of his career. I see Tunney taking the lead and ahead going into the 11th but the relentless pressure and power of Marciano getting to him in the last 2 rds. Tunney goes down late and then again the 2nd KD is for the long count. Marciano KO 15

 

Tunney wins. More skilled that Walcott or Charles and younger. He makes a field day of this, KD's Marciano and wins an overwhelming points victory.

 

I'm not sure if you should call it a "losing strategy", but what else is Tunney going to do but backpedal? What CAN he do if that doesn't work? In a 12 round fight i see it as a close decision in Marciano's favor, but over 15 i think Rocky takes it clearly, perhaps by TKO.


The thing is, a guy like Dempsey is much different from Marciano. Dempsey is more explosive, but doesn't apply the same constant pressure. It's like comparing Tyson to Frazier. I'd consider Ali/Frazier 50/50, but Ali would probably beat Tyson comfortably after surviving tough early rounds.

For similar reasons, i think Tunney matches up well with Dempsey and Tyson (though Tyson is too big and strong), but not with Frazier and Marciano. They eat up classic boxer/movers.