Heavyweight with the best technique.

Ok so I just re-watched the FOTC with my pops (he came to visit for the holidays; after the kids went to bed each night, we spent the rest of the night watching old fights). In addition to the fight not actually being that close (Frazier was beating the tar out of Ali for most of the fight), the thing that struck me was that Frazier's left hook thrown at full speed was noticeably faster than anything Ali had. Given how many different angles Frazier threw it at, it's understandable to me why he tagged Ali with it so much.

 

Yet he could barely land on George Foreman, admittedly he probably wasn't the same version of Frazier that met big George and he really didn't get going but it's crazy how ineffective he was against him, Ali just didn't know how to handle it, he showed the same deficiencies in other bouts including Norton and Shavers, this time he was eating right hands.

 

Technique in what area? Fitz certainly greatly advanced punching technique, as did Dempsey with his innovative bob and weave and footwork as well as punching too. I can't rate Frazier, Tyson or Patterson above him as their styles are basically derivatives of his even if more refined
Louis gets a number one for me overall techniquewise

 

I went with Joe Louis but some of these fighters are pretty close. I’ll also ad Ezzard Charles who’s not on the list and did a lot of great work at heavyweight.

 

Well, Foreman never let Frazier get set in front of him. He'd push him away or twist his shoulders.

 

Which is something Ali could have utilized, instead, all he tried to do was pull his head back away from the punch.

 

You are one hundred correct. Both were instinctive. Louis was technically instinctive. His reflex and speed was directed into textbook technique. Ali was uniquely instinctive. His speed and reflex was freelance.

 

Ali threw text book punches, and he practiced same religiously on the heavy bag - but he could also launch them even when not in ideal position/stance.

As Steve Ellis called it in Miami, Ali was hitting Sonny with “All the punches in the book” and, lighting speed/reflex aside, they did look very well executed. .

Imo, at least for comparison. Roy Jones Jr was much more unorthodox than Ali - and while Roy’s speed was amazing I always felt there was something missing in terms of fundamental executions - which, when practiced properly, are aesthetically pleasing and satisfying in their own right.

 

Not absurd at all the closer you look to Ricardo Lopez the closer you are to essence of good form and Evander isn’t remotely there. Lopez is the golden standard to me, though he did things “wrong” he had his right foot further back to account for shorter guys. Maybe it’s Joe Louis himself who is the standard? Mm.

 

Tyson and Bowe should have been among the candidates. Usyk for me, though. But I can see why Louis and Holy got the most votes. Terrific technicians both.

 

Sometimes anything more than two words is just too much.

 

Ain't that the truth!!!!!!!

 

Totally agree.

Sometimes less is so much more.

Though it busts the two word limit, I’m quite fond of the expression: “shut your cake hole” myself. “Shut your neck” does the trick also.

 

Yes. Everyone knows that Ali did some things wrong, at least for those without his tremendous natural gifts, but the things he did right is a pleasure to watch.

 

You've got to be joking
The "phantom punch" ?!? That was not technique, that was Liston taking a dive from a soft Ali punch that couldn't even crush a grape.
And the "rope a dope" ?! That's strategy, not technique.

Ali beat Liston and Foreman under certain circumstances.
Liston was around 40 years old when they fought, barely trained and had a shoulder injury in the first fight. Took a dive in the second.
Foreman punched himself out in the scorching heat of Zaire.
Tyson, Lewis, Bowe, Holmes, Fury, Vitali - all could do just as good, if not better, had they met the same versions of Foreman and Liston.

No, it isn't.
Technically, Ali wasn't a very good fighter. He had many weaknesses and made many tactical errors in the rings: he did not know how to properly hold his hands, or how to duck (he pulled back or sidestepped), nor did he know how to parry or to block a jab.
In an 1969 Sports Illustrated article, Ali demonstrated how he avoided a jab. He relied on judging the distance and leaning away. If you look at Ali on film, he held his right hand out to the side and did not have it in position to block a jab. That is why Ali had problems with certain fighters like Doug Jones and Norton, fighters with a good left jab could cause him great difficulty. Norton consistently hit Ali with his jab because Ali didn't keep his right hand up to parry Norton’s counter jab.
Ali threw a right uppercut from the outside and dropped his right hand every time before he threw it. This is precisely why Ali was vulnerable to the left hook throughout his career.

Ali had tremendous physical gifts (speed and reflexes), and that is why he was able to get away with things that would have gotten most fighters beaten up. He's similar to Roy Jones in that regard.
So to conclude, Ali did not have great technique.