Heavyweights with the best defence

Nat Fleischer said Jack Johnson was the best he saw. On film, we actually see him laughing as he successfully defends himself against Fireman Flynn's flying head butt attempts. (Interestingly, head clashes did not play a role in the outcome of any Marciano bouts. Rocky led with his left shoulder and right hand, not his head. Vito Antuofermo was widely credited during his career as being a vastly underrated defensive fighter, yet he decried head butting as the defining tactic which undermined his career. Don Curry however owned responsibility for his head being available to be butted after a bout which was stopped on a butt. Rocky Marciano's head was not available to be butted.)

Winning the title from a badly out of shape Lil' Artha' required the combination of blistering heat and humidity, a 45 round limit (Johnson was badly fading but still winning after 25 rounds where his best stanzas were the 14th and 15th), and a monstrous left to the body which bent him over to set him up for the finishing right. Marvin Hart outhustled him over 20, Hank Griffin also pulled it off over the same limit in just the Galveston Giant's 12 bout nine months after Choynski wiped him out in three. (It was Choynski's jail cell tutelage of Jack which then turned his career around and enabled him to survive Griffin 3X.)

Jimmy Young took Ron Lyle to school twice and was an absolute headache from 1974 to 1977. Lyle went from Young I to leading against the GOAT after ten rounds in a situation where Ali was in excellent condition, coming off 15 rounds of exertion with Wepner. Lyle went from Young II (where one judge had Jimmy beating Ron 11 rounds to one) to a 12 round decision win over Bugner.

After Jerry Quarry, Ron Lyle became an extremely skilled boxer-puncher. One does not decision Stallings, Peralta, Middleton, Ellis, Bugner and Stan Ward with deficient boxing skill, yet Jimmy Young schooled him twice when Big Ron was at his peak.

Before Young-Lyle I, Ron had UDed Jimmy Ellis and Oscar Bonavena in 12 round back to backs. Norton went for Jimmy's body in a Championship Distance encounter many observers believe Young should've won anyway.

Prior to Jack Johnson, Jim Corbett deserves some consideration. He may well have deserved a knockout win over Fitz (where George Siler inexplicably stalled the count for precious moments, and Fitz did it with body shots, something Jeff also keyed in their rematch. But Corbett was only knocked out by a head shot in the classic first bout with Jeff when his eyesight had diminished enough to compromise his depth perception and ability to gage distance accurately.

Corbett himself considered Loughran to be the actualization, the fulfillment of what Corbett himself aspired to. Tommy's achievements at HW are too considerable to be ignored, and he earned his shot at Carnera legitimately. He looked as if he was shadow boxing the tall and long armed Braddock. Not having a first rate chin, he literally gave Max Baer nightmares with his jab, then pled a stunned Loughran in teaching it, lessons which paid off against Schmeling. The Larruper would've only needed one good shot to take Tommy out, and he couldn't land it.

Back to Marciano. Before their rematch, LaStarza said, "Rocky's not as easy to hit as he looks. He hides behind that left shoulder using that short jab you laugh at until you realize he's setting you up for his bad medicine, his right hand." Observing from ringside, Archie Moore thought he was a sucker for a left hook, then discovered once in the ring with him that it wasn't so easy. As quick as Cockell was, he only landed one really good right, which demonstrated the quality of Marciano's chin. JJW probably had the most success getting to him, and spectators were beginning to compare him to Gans when Rocky put the lights out.

Larry Holmes had an awful long career, and has all his marbles. Offhand, I don't recall him ever looking as though he'd been in a fight. Even at his peak, his defensive elusiveness was questioned at times, yet peak Tyson and peak Holyfield were his only two conclusive defeats. That has to say something.

 

To be fair men like Jimmy Young also piled up losses but it’s prob best to judge them at their best. To many men in this sport have poor management which could result in a ton of losses. Bad trainers early on. Fighting injured. If we r to judge JJW on his best streak he would b a fine fighter capable of competing w anyone as would Young.

 

I don’t think anyone got hit less after a full career than Vitali.

Byrd also gets a ton of praise for a guy who got beaten up a bunch of times.

 

Byrd had to cope with being at enormous physical disadvantages vs giants and he did not have the power to keep them off. The fact that he was able to have the degree of success he had is a testament to his defense.

 

Yes, but they did not win a world title, so your point is...

 

Ezzard Charles might be my pick for the heavyweight champion with the best defense. James Toney, Mike Tyson and Usyk are the other obvious shouts.

 

When the division is at a complete low tide, someone's gotta win.

 

I think you have completely lost the plot, here.

A lot of guys in the era faced similar circumstances, but no else pulled themselves up to win a world title and shock Joe Louis.

That is a tribute to his tremendous skill.

 

Who else in that era got the opportunity so many times?

 

Who else should have?

 

No shouts for Dempsey, Tunney or Ezzard? All lineal champs with some great defensive facets, even if, admittedly, demonstrated at lighter weight classes.

Louis' parrying and catch and shoot, as well as off centre head placement is classically brilliant.
Ali's footwork as he slips, slides, pivots and spins has traces of Pep and SRR.
Toney's shoulder roll and right hand counter aren't to be sniffed at.
Tyson's upper body movement is probably underrated due to his power and speed combination.
Moore forgot more boxing techniques than most fighters have in their entire locker.

 

I think they all deserve a shout out especially Dempsey for pioneering a great style. But a lot of their best fights weren't filmed which makes it a bit hard to analyze them.

 

The Dempsey thing is true and raises a great point.

Is it enough for a fighter to be brilliant over, say, 5 - 8 fights, so by today's standards a 3 - 5 year period, depending on activity level or are we looking for fighters who showed consistently high defensive capability throughout their careers?

There are some fighters who have iron chins until they're cracked and they lose all sorts of durability. There are some fighters who rarely get marked up and then they get cracked or take a beating and then it seems like everyone can hit them and you wonder where their reflexes went.

 

When would you say he was getting tagged hard and clean due to defensive lapses from winning the title until exile? That's peak Ali.

 

It's every time he clowned around and took the p1ss with an opponent.

People often use Jones, Cooper, Chuvalo, Mildenberger or Folley as examples without recognising that there's specific factors at play here.

Jones and Cooper are pre-peak and he won both fights. The thing about boxing is it's a martial art and there's pretty much no way that you reach heavyweight champion level without being able to take some sort of punch, having some sort of offensive capability and being able to grind out a win. The art is being able to hit and not get hit more than the other guy.

Ali rarely marked up - Chuvalo fight, people thought that he was a soft patsy fancy dan type, he deliberately stands and lets Chuvalo tee off on his mid section and showed off his incredible durability to the body. When he wanted to, Chuvalo was soundly outboxed. Mildenberger was a southpaw that he eventually solved and beat. In the Folley fight, Ali just walked him down and was trying out things in the ring on the fly, including right hand lead pull counters off minimised headmovement.

In the pre-exile iteration, he comes out and usually heads for ring centre and then dances for a bit in round 1. He blades, pivots, circles, bangs his gloves together and throws head and hand feints to register his opponent's reactions and almost warm up before he starts his own offence with a few jabs to head and body to draw their counter so he can time and land the right. There's amples of defensive responsibility in his footwork, in his blading of the body, in his hiding his chin behind his shoulder as he angles off and pivots. He even parries jabs, elbow and forearm blocks punches aimed for his stomach and slips jabs both inside and outside the jab, as well as ducking, rolling and weaving under incoming hooks - classic defensive manoeuvres accentuated by the balance and speed of his footwork.

Ali ate food and was a very diligent gym worker before exile. Post exile, he didn't necessarily work as hard and when you combine age, the loss of 3 1/2 years' impact on his leg conditioning and poor gym consistency, he's going to lose a step or two. Now combine that with taking on the calibre of some of the fighters he did in the 70s run, of course he's going to get hit - but he found a way to win most of the important fights and really, when all is said and done, isn't that what it's about - winning fights? It's a battle of wills, skills and minds - not a pretty boy fashion show!