Help me understand: Thrilla in Manilla > Ali/Frazier I

I think that in terms of "Social History" for lack of a better term. The first fight was more important. It was two undefeated boxers each with a claim to the Heavyweight Championship of The World. There was a lot of political tension in the U.S.. Each boxer was something of a repasentive for each side of that tension. The match was also a major event. It was one of those everybody who was anybody was there. If I recall corectory Frank Sinatra worked the fight as a photographer for Life or Look Magazine.

The third fight is more important in terms of "Boxing History". Frazier winning the first fight and Ali winning a rematch almost three years latter. This fight probbly effects the all time heavyweight rankings more than any other heavyweight boxing match. There fore the result of this match is more important than any other heavyweight boxing match. The winner is likely the best heavyweight of all time. In the end Ali won and while cases can be made for others like Louis and Marciano as being the best heavyweight. Ali's win over Frazier in the third fight gives him along with his skills and resume the strongest case.

What would have happened if Frazier had won? Having had beaten Ali twice. It would be hard to argue that Ali is better than him. Having beating Ali 2 out of 3 times a strong case could made for Frazier being the best heavyweight ever. It would not be as strong as the case for Ali. It would at least put him in the top 5. Frazier's win over Ali would also move Foreman who has two stoppage wins over Frazier up the rankings.
Had Frazier won the all time Heavyweight rankings top 5 would be in any order, but I will give you mine.
1. Louis
2. Marciano
3. Frazier
4. Ali
5. Foreman
With a Frazier win in the third fight I think a case could made for any of these five boxers being the best heavyweight ever. However the reality is that Ali won and The short list of choices for best heavyweight ever is
1. Ali
2. Louis
3. Marciano

 

I got mine on eBay

 

Ali also wanted to quit after round 5 with Liston

That didn't end up happening though

 

For FOTC:
http://www.youtube.com/user/primeboxers

For Ali-Frazier II:
http://www.youtube.com/user/boxingatitsbest

 

Plus, how does Frazier win Manilla in your guys minds?


No half-way decent trainer would have sent Frazier out there. He basically lost the minute he sat on that stool, the poor guy.

 

Very true Reznick. If Frazier had been sent out for the last round,we may well have been landed with another ring tragedy. Joe could n't get out of the way of Muhammad's punches during the pentultimate stanza. Frazier has always complained about this,saying that Yancey Durham would have let him go ahead. Surely he would n't have. Durham cared about Frazier too.

 

Ali also told Dundee to "stop the fight" during the first Liston bout.


What does that tell you?


Also, if I can remember correctly, Angelo recently said in an interview that Ali never said "cut off the gloves" in the corner at the end of the 14th.

That myth was started by the incredibly bias HBO documentary.


Let's not try to discredit Ali, here.


He deserves full credit for dismantling Frazier in the last few rounds and forcing a retirement.

 

Very true. Frazier seems to have been elevated to some sort of a saint after that documentary. It had a ridicolously clear and biased agenda, but many here seems to take it as gospel. Frazier was an extremely tough and very straight talking guy, and props to him for that, but he was no "working class" hero as some seemingly try to make him into.

He was very competitive in his mindset; calling Ali "Clay" in the early pre-match stages (directly after the Bonavena fight actually) despite knowing full well how that riled Ali. Alos, shortly after the fight he accepted the invite of wealthy business men from his home state (Alabama) and ridiculed Ali's conduct in the fight to their great delight. This in front of men who likely would have had him lynched had he looked one time to many at their daughters when growing up.

 

For those interested, I found the link I was referring to.

http://www.eastsideboxing.com/news.php?p=25082&more=1


I think we should separate fact from fiction. Here we have the corner-man of Muhammad Ali tell us that Ali did NOT say "cut 'em off". I'm just throwing it out there and you can take it how you will.

 

Yeah, but people are always reluctant of letting the truth get in the way of a good story. That "documentary" was good entertainment, but from a journalistic viewpoint it was garbage.

 

I've always preferred the FOTC to the Thrilla...to be fair to Joe Frazier, the FOTC featured him at his best...his absolute peak...and Ali was closer to his respective peak as well. It was a better fight, IMO, and as you know, Smokin' Joe put the big mouth on his back in that climactic last round for a most satisfying victory, in my admittedly somewhat biased opinion....satisfying indeed because the win for joe ****ed the minds of the Ali-worshipping nuthuggers that I despise so much.

 

FWIW, those Ali fan-boys don't have anything to worry about, though.

He finished the series with Joe 2-1, and he is widely regarded as the greatest heavyweight ever.

 

Several of Ali's corner men say this did not happen. The ones who claim it did, weren't anywhere near Ali's corner.

That said, it sucked to see anybody lose that fight. One of the rare, rare fights in boxing where both men would have killed or died, no question, to go to the end and be the better man. Thank God for Eddie Futch, who refused to even chance Joe making that kind of sacrifice.

 

Ali is alleged to have said the same thing during Liston 1,but managed to come out and proceed to kick Liston's ass.

 

Good points Bokaj :good Some go on about 'Ali hype' but Frazier has a fair amount of it too. Courtesy,as you say,of that programme.