Henry Maske- light heavyweights forgotten man and other forgotten European world champions

Out of respect to Eggman, this will be my last post.

There’s nothing wrong with using stats, if you use them in the right way.

Looking at fight dates and a fighter’s height and reach etc, are fine.

I’ve already given you examples on how you twist things.

On this thread, Tiozzo holds a great win over Dariusz M who had an amazing reign.

On previous threads, Tiozzo’s win over Dariusz doesn’t mean much, as Dariusz was completely shot.

On this thread, Lucas is a good win, as he was a future SMW champ.

On a previous thread, he’d already lost to a lesser fighter.

On this thread, Tiozzo has an impressive win over McCallum.

On another thread, Toney doesn’t, because he beat a faded former JMW.

That’s what you do.

You spin the stats in your favour.

If it’s someone you like, you spin the stats to build up their opponents. But if it’s someone you don’t like, you do the exact opposite.

Proclaiming that Collins has a great win over a shot, injured Benn speaks volumes.

You can’t be taken seriously.

We’ll leave it there.

 

Not European ones.

When I first read the thread, I was thinking of Zolt Erdie. But I see that Bailey has already bumped his great thread on him.

 

You see here how you accuse others of so much but cant see any fault in yourself?
You say it is OK to use stats as long as they are used how you specifically want them to be and not if they are stats that dont suit you.
That is a real narcissism problem that I notice there and not for the first time, even if only mentioning it at this time

Cant say what I did and didnt write as you make up and bend so much of what has been written but DM did have a great reign. Dont disagree with that.
Cant recall saying Tiozzos win wasnt good. It was a good win as nobody had beaten Dariusz like that before. His only loss was a controversial loss. Maybe there was some context applied. Notice how you keep saying about context? Or is that something said when it suits?
You will have to find all of these alleged posts of mine. They must be keeping you awake at night

dont believe I have ever been in deep discussions with anyone on here when discussing Tiozzos fight with Lucas.
Cant say I believe you on this. Might have talked of Lucas fights about Kessler, Beyer, Jones, Green etc Or maybe some of his other fights but none are springing to mind
Still you are going to go back years and dig up all my old posts so cant wait to see them all

Think you are spinning things here. Tiozzo has a clear win over McCallum. Toney did not at that time. Cant see whats unclear or spinning on that?
You tell me?

Did I say great win? Maybe. Whether I said great or not, I couldnt say. that could just be you saying, but still It certainly was a decent win as Benn had only just lost his title on a disputed decision when he faced Collins and was a top SMW. Benn was also 9-1-1 in SMW title fights and had beaten some decent SMWs
Cant see what is incorrect with what I wrote. Can you?

Now call this stats or call it facts but lets compare Collins/Benn and Ward/Froch for example as we have talked about both these fights before.

When Froch fought Ward he was 34
When Benn fought Collins he was 32

When Froch fought Ward he was 5-1 in SMW title fights
When Benn fought Collins he was 9-1-1 in SMW title fights

Now I have always said that is a good win for Ward, but you seem to imply (and I wont say you have said, because I couldnt say for sure if you did use the exact words) great win.
Now I think it was a good win but when you compare the 2 above, you can see that they arent as far apart as you like to try and say.
So as you can see, it is you who also bends stats when it suits, but you cannot see that with being so narcissistic, because if a stat suits you, you also site it when it suits, but just cant see it in yourself

 

People seem to often forget or not credit Felix Sturm who was based in Germany
2 weight champ
4 time MW title holder
won WBO WBA WBAs IBF MW titles and WBA S SMW title
Went 15 - 4 - 2 in MW title fights
Went 1 - 1 - 0 in SMW title fights

Has some good wins and fights

 

bailey,

It’s nothing to do with being narcissistic.

Don’t be silly.

I’ve already told you the issue I have.

This is the last time I’m going to type it.

On this thread, Dariusz had a great, almost 50-0 reign, where he was eventually stopped by Tiozzo. So you think that Tiozzo stopping him was very impressive.

Normally, even if I didn’t agree with that opinion, I could respect it. But I can’t. Because I know that on previous threads, where people have said they weren’t that impressed with Dariusz as he lost to Gonzalez and Tiozzo, you have said that he was shot at that point.

That’s my issue.

You have two different outlooks depending on who you’re talking to and what the debate is.

Regarding McCallum, sure, Tiozzo had a clearer win. But if you’re not going to give Toney credit by saying that he beat a faded former JMW, then you can’t give Tiozzo any for beating an even older version, 2 divisions higher.

This is an absolutely perfect example of how you debate on stats.

You never take into account any circumstances.

You never look at where the fighters were at the time, and what they did afterwards etc.

It’s all numbers with you.

After watching boxing for years, you know that age and ring age are 2 very different things.

Yes, at the time of the fights, Benn had better stats at the weight. But those stats don’t alter the following:


Carl had reached the final of the S6 and was in form.

He went and destroyed Bute afterwards.

He went on to beat Kessler and knock out George Groves.

Andre beat him with ease, despite him having a double fractured hand.

Benn had come out of retirement.

He’d just lost to Malinga.

He had to bet money on himself as a motivational tool for the only time in his career.

He retired afterwards because he’d got nothing left to give.


Now you will happily ignore those highly relevant points as you’re only interested in the numbers.

You have told me many times that you don’t really rate Andre’s win, but you think that Collins had 2 great wins over Nigel Benn. Your words.

So:

Andre easily beating Carl whilst being injured = Not a great win.

Collins beating an injured Benn who had to withdraw in the 4th round due to ankle injury = A great win.


How can a fighter beating a faded injured fighter be great, yet a fighter being injured beating a fighter with ease, not be?

That’s illogical.


Benn’s overall statistics at the weight aren’t relevant. What’s relevant, is all the factors that I noted.

You focus too much on the numbers instead of the fighters and the circumstances.

You’re a stat man.

 

Most of the guys pretty much summed him up. I'm glad this (and the other thread) got made. He's a blast from the past. Fine technician, very good career. No qualms with him not coming to the US. I don't think he'd have the same level of success had he done that.

 

Oh no. Somehow you can spin stats to suit agendas. Ask @Loudon lol
That isnt for you to reply to Eggman or to bring you in to that comment

 

We will soon find out. It has a bad tendency to raise its ugly head with you, but lets get past that and look on into what you are going to say

Dariusz was at the end of his career and probably not what he was, but fact is, he only had one highly disputed loss that many felt he had won. Tiozzo dropped back down in weight and was completely dominant against him.
Cant see what you dont think is impressive?
Would it have been the same if the result was against prime Michalczewski? No. That would have been more impressive but as it was, it was a good performance by Tiozzoandt you dont note that Tiozzo was also late in his career also, having dropped in weight

Contradictory. To say the least

See above

Not at all. You have to take into account the fighters and where they were also in their careers.
This is based on me not agreeing with you on a particular fighter. Nothing more. Get over that

Toney didnt have a win over McCallum at first ask and the second was disputed. Tiozzos win was never disputed

What stat?

What circumstances?
Toney didnt beat McCallum when he first fought him. Tiozzo did

Quite the opposite.
Look at the above when talking Michalczewski/Tiozzo

Never disagreed with that. It is you who only picks and chooses on this. You go on about Benn being injured but forget Froch said before facing Ward that he felt like an old man, or how he had said something along the lines of he just wanted to get back for Christmas, or that he had an injury which prevented him being able to get his arm up properly to protect himself. That doesnt suit you, so you miss that out.
Now, I call it a good win for Ward but take into account everything, like how long Froch had been on the road in a tougher regime. You dont.
You pick and choose, I like to keep it even

Carl was in form?
Whats the S6 got to do with it? It was a one off competition, like rating C Smith because he got to the final of his tournament.
Carl had a disputed decision over Pascal, had a last minute win over Taylor in a fight he was losing on points, had a disputed win over Dirrell, a loss to Kessler, a win over Abraham, and a disputed win over a boiled down faded more G Johnson who had no top form at SMW.
Benn had a disputed loss to Malinga, but had a far clearer in form run with wins over the same amount of fights over Wharton, McClellan, Giminez, Nardiello etc

It was a good win. It doesnt change all of the run up with disputed decisions and wars

Now you say I dont take circumstance into account and that Benn had come out of retirement and you claimed all these injurys etc and then you note Kessler for Froch. But I use double standards in your opinion.
You see. It didnt take me anytime at all to be able to pull you up for doing what you claim I do, but of course, wont be able to see any of it in yourself

And now here you go again, (doing what you have got upset with me pointing out to you previously) saying what the fighters were thinking like some mind reader.
How do you know Benn didnt bet on himself because he confident he thought he was going to win? You dont, this is once again you posting what you claim fighters were thinking and trying to pass it off as a fact.
Not really worth giving anymore of a response to. Even you must think that? Or can you not see that posting what you think others are thinking and passing it off as a fact as another form of control and narcissism?

Once again, you are not telling everything. I have said it was a good win, just dont rate it as highly as you do, but because I am not in complete agreement with everything you say and because you cant impose any will on me, get agitated because you dont feel in control

Its funny how even though Frochs injury has been mentioned to you so many times, you choose to ignore it and pretend he had no injury. Why would you pretend when there have been links and posts pretend he didnt have an injury?
This once again is another example of you doing what you are accusing others of

And here comes the narcissist again.

Thats a real problem there Loudon.
I have shown you several times what you have done there. You really do have a bad issue. Nothing is relevant unless it is what you have said according to you, yet when someone doesnt agree with you, you accuse them of just that. Thats a real narcissist
I dont expect you to even realise when it is put clearly to you like this.

There were so many mistakes and things you got wrong in that comment but probably not worth spending too much time on that part

Stat man over narcissist. I'll take that. Stats dont lie

 

Although not European but I think massively forgotten considering what he achieved I thought I would copy and paste the Chris John Tribute thread for here. Hope you dont mind

https://www.boxingforum24.com/threads/the-atgs-tribute-thread-pt-5-chris-john.558897/#post-17757617


The ATGs thread Pt 5 Chris John

Chris John should be appreciated more than he is, in my opinion.
Read on...

1. It was Chris Johns 32nd fight when he won the FW WBA int world title and his next fight was his first defence of the WBA FW title

Consider before John won his world title he had already beaten former champ Ratanachai Sor Vorapin

2. John made 18 title defences over his reign and was a winner of 16 world title fights, 3 draws

3. Johns FW reign was impressive

Look at who John beat
D Gainer former WBA FW champ
JM Marquez owner of the WBA super and IBF FW titles when John beat Marquez, who went on to win various other titles
O Sato former SBW champ
C Piriyapinyo
R Juarez
H Enoki
D Yordan

John won the WBA INT FW title when he beat O Leon. From there John went on to make an impressive amount of FW title defences where he beat some impressive fighters including the great J M Marquez along the way, whos career went on in impressive fashion.
John also showed no problem with taking his title on the road and defending in Australia, America, Japan, Singapore and in those title fights he successfully defended on foreign ground 9 times proving himself an ATG

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Feel free to view these other ATG Tribute Threads

The ATGs Tribute thread Pt 1 Sven Ottke,
http://www.eastsideboxing.com/forum/...d.php?t=315781


The ATGs Tribute thread Pt 2 Henry Maske,
http://www.eastsideboxing.com/forum/...d.php?t=316464


followThe ATGs Tribute thread Pt 3 Fabrice Tiozzo,
http://www.eastsideboxing.com/forum/...d.php?t=320547

The ATGs Tribute thread. Pt 4. Virgil Hill
http://www.boxingforum24.com/showthread.php?t=321379

More ATG Tribute threads to come