Here is your chance to convince me lennox lewis is a top 10 heavyweight of all time

True. But he dominated, never lost.

"title fights" were cheap in his era. He was awarded the WBC alphabet belt once, and allowed to defend against the cocaine-addled washed-up remains of Tony Tucker in his inaugural 'defence', and it went on that way more or less. Oh, yeah, Frank Bruno, whatever, Phil Jackson, brilliant, ok.
But then McCall dethrone him from his paper throne.

A couple of years later they dragged McCall (who'd since lost to Bruno, which was kind of him) out of rehab so Lewis could contest a "world title" again. It was fair enough since there were world titles everywhere at that time and Mike Tyson (who had the pleasure of CHALLENGING champion Frank Bruno ) refused to fight Lewis, or something like that.

later on, as WBC champ, Lewis became undisputed champion (because opinion was holding out agains the WBO still!) by beating Holyfield who had unified the WBA and IBF belts.
Then Lewis started throwing away belts, world titles were cheap, see.

Perhaps if Marciano's day had such a situation, he'd have had 10 or 15 "world title" fights.


I don't see this greatest array of powerpunchers. Besides, power is overrated, skill is more important. Most heavyweights can hit pretty good anyway.

The division was a splintered mess of titles and politics for the most part. Yes, Lewis had good longevity.

Marciano turned pro at 25 and retired at 32 without a loss, undisputed as champion.

 

Marciano ranks #5 with me because he went undefeated. I currently place Lennox #7 and not higher because of those 2 losses most dare not speak of. But he dominated his era and has some outstanding victories that place him high.

One thing that bugs me is Shannon Briggs gets mentioned as one of his greatest wins. The only thing great about the win is Lennox showed he could come back from some really scary moments against a power puncher. To me, Briggs is the worst "lineal" champ in history. Anyways...

A case can be made for Lewis at #5 but nothing higher. He rates higher than Frazier and even Foreman because he dominated his era and put together a nice winning streak of impressive victories. I don't count him as the Undisputed Champ (Lineal) until he beat Holyfield, but the WBC defenses were very good indeed. And he faced everyone except for Bowe and the rigor mortis setting Foreman.

 

I like Marciano so I don't want to tear down his resume, McVey has done it often enough But Unforgiven's posts lead me to assume that H2H comparisons don't really come into it?

Because as much as I like Rocky, I can't help but recall the time the forum came down on me like a ton of bricks when I suggested Marciano could have beaten Lewis if he had been in Levi Billups' place. Just sayin'.

 

No one will ever agree on the purely H2H comparisons. I'm not saying they don't come into it. It's difficult enough to rate and compare resumes anyway.

 

What era do you have Lewis dominating ? Which years ?

 

This.

The widespread myth that Lewis was some dominant champion is hilarious. He was undisputed from 99-03, and in that period he had 7 fights, 1 which he lost, and he was stripped of 2 belts in the process.. Sorry, that's not "dominant" by any stretch.

 

Exactly.
It's not a bad run, but I fail to see how it's better than what Joe Frazier did, for example.

 

Not only that , but the opponents he beat that elevate him into top 5 greatness were beaten by other ordinary level guys.

Such as Briggs who had been done away with in quicker time by Darroll Wilson.
Tua couldn't even beat Chris Byrd when he was fit and in good condition. But somehow he's a great win for Lewis when he weighed a debilitating 250 pound - standing at only 5 foot 10.

Ibeabuchi - who looked like the last of the great 90's era boxers showed how easy it was to beat Byrd.

Morrison was just a few fight away from retirement. Had already lost in one to Brennt. Another great win for Lewis despite him losing almost every fantasy h2h match-up on this forum and generally seen as being useless..

Prime undefated Golota couldn't handle a past prime Riddock Bowe in two encounters.
Grant was a hypejob who went life and death with Golota one fight before Lewis and was knocked out in one round by MaCline straight after Lewis.

Then you have skinny undersized Marovic who took Lewis the distance and gave him all he could handle.

What else is there? Does beating a faded Holyfied enter him into the top 5? Why isn't Bowe top 5 since he beat the best Holyfied that ever stepped into the ring and in much better fashion than Lewis did.

The dire era that followed did more for his legacy than his actual resume did. It was so bad to come that he left with a win against a guy who would be regarded as the best for the following 10 years.

That boxing wasteland of ineptitude made him look like he was the Tyson of the 80's when in fact he was seen as a boring dullard who's greatest skill was his size.

 

Yeah, I've never understood why people rave about Lewis's resume.
They usually credit him with default imaginary wins over prime Holyfield, prime Bowe and a good version of Tyson, I suppose.

 

The facts-

He went 41-2-1 (32) overall, 14-2-1 (10) in 17 HW World Title Fights, 4-1-1 (3) vs. Lineal HW Champs, vs. 3-1-1 (2) vs. Hall of Famers, 3x Champ, retired as Lineal HW Champ, and he beat every fighter he ever faced (at some point).

He was stopped twice but only 3 Lineal HW Champs were never stopped (Tunney, Marciano, and Bowe). Fury hasn't been stopped yet but he is still active.

Holyfield and Tyson were past prime when Lewis beat them but Lewis was always willing to fight the best HWs in the world, he was paid millions in step aside money.

He was avoided by Bowe, Tyson, and Holyfield. Sure he eventually went 2-0-1 (1) vs. Holyfield and Tyson but it would have been nice to have seen Lewis vs. all of them... when it would have mattered more. Again, not Lewis' fault.

He stopped Ruddock, Bruno, Morrison, McCall (in the rematch he quit fighting back), Golota, Botha, Grant, Briggs, Tyson, Rahman (rematch), V. Klitschko, and others. He won decisions over Mercer, Holyfield, Tua, and others.

6'5" with an 84" reach and it didn't matter if he weighed 225 or 250Lbs. He had a great jab, used his height, reach, and weight well. He had awesome power, especially with the right hand. With Manny Steward in his corner he was at his best (Rahman caught him in their first fight though).

I have him around 6.

 

I've never seen any evidence put forward to back this up.

 

He happily accepted step aside money to allow Tyson fight Seldon when he could've enforced the fight.

But in 2003 after he beat Tyson's ghost , he'd tried to sue Tyson for not taking a rematch. Why didn't he sue back in 1996?

Also he got stripped of every title he ever held. What other great can claim that?

 

Lewis was a clever businessman with clever lawyers and a good manipulator of the facts, had good PR stories. I say this in admiration.
He moved well against the other promoters and camps, and all the while playing up his image as the clean honest outsider battling against the American boxing establishment, esp. Don King.
His own managers and promoters were no better but he ended up suing and winning from them too. He's a pretty good role model in the business sense.

 

I see what you are saying... but we all saw Bowe throw that belt in the trash, Lewis was proclaimed the WBC Champ just like Norton was Proclaimed the WBC Champ when L. Spinks wouldn't fight him.

Tyson paid the step aside money (why not take the money? Tyson wasn't going to fight him and would have been stripped anyway), later, Tyson was stripped when he wouldn't fight Lewis and Lewis beat McCall in a rematch for the vacant WBC belt. Tyson thought Holyfield was the easier fight.

Holyfield wanted to fight Moorer in a rematch instead of making a fight with Lewis. Hey, I'm a huge Holyfield fan, I was glad he made the Moorer fight instead, although he may have had a better chance vs. Lewis had they fought in '97.

 

Yeah, it was claim that Holyfield avoided him that I'm questioning.
There is some truth or evidence in the Bowe and Tyson cases.
But I don't think Holyfield ever did.
Moorer held the IBF title and had a win over Holyfield, so that fight made sense.