Here's my go at a p4p list...

Good points. What order would you suggest for the Top 12-15, using my criteria?

 

No resume at all; just my criteria...what order would you suggest?

 

That list looks very different from mine!:think

Much better than the Ring ratings, though; I am sure everyone agrees.

 

No...I don't mind "ugly"! But if Hopkins wins by constantly hitting over the back of the head, coming in with his head to open up a cut, hugging a la Ruiz all the time, hitting below the belt, hitting after the bell and hitting after the ref has stopped the action, and jumping and hugging Calzaghe like Hatton sometimes does, for example, the ref turns a blind eye and he is given the nod by the judges, I will not consider that a very impressive performance by the man I rank as the 20 odd best fighter in the world against Calzaghe. This, because, whilst these are skills of gamesmanship sometimes necessary to win a match, they are not really skills of boxing. When they are the main skills employed by a fighter, the fight is destroyed and it isn't a good boxing performance.

I will make no allowances for Hopkins being 43 or for his past achievements, as most people do here when they rate him as one of the best fighters in the world, if his performance on the night is not impressive from an absolute point of view, whatever the age, etc.

 

When deciding who the best fighters in the world are, I'm not basing my view on whether they have an L or a W against their name but on the performance in the ring against the calibre of opponent on show. There are three men in the ring that are required to play ball for all their performances to be great and that includes the referee. All three can destroy a good fight. To really showcase your skills, you need the opportunity and a fair chance. It's not just down to you, but also to your opponent and the ref.

I agree with you. But you can be a master of riding the thin line between cheating and gamesmanship without being great at boxing, to a certain degree. This is especially the case if the laws of the game are flagrantly disregarded by the ref. The limitations of great gamesmanship are very obvious when you come up against a technically superior and crafty opponent - see Hatton v. Mayweather or Bika v. Calzaghe, for example.

I don't care about who gets the nod! It's not about the W or L, robbery or not. It's about performance.

One thing is to hold when you abslutely have to, another is to base your whole gameplan on hit and hold. One thing is to hit below the belt when you're in big trouble, another to base your whole gameplan on getting out of trouble by hitting below the belt. One thing is to try and headbutt your opponent to get an advantage inside, another is to base your whole gameplan on opening up a cut. One thing is to hit after the bell because you are so eager to get the nod for a close round, another thing is to base your whole gameplan around hitting after the bell/after the ref has stopped the action. There is aiming to get away with gamesmanship and there is aiming to get away with cheating. The line is thin, but there IS a line.

Again, not about W or L for me, robbery or not. Not all W's carry the same weight; nor do all L's. It's about performance and the manner of that W or L. Calzaghe can win, even by stoppage and still go down the rankings for me if his performance was less good than would be expected of the 3rd/4th best fighter in the world against someone I rate somewhere in the 20s, unless the fighter I rate in the 20s pulls out of the bag an amazing performance which, instead of making Calzaghe fall, makes Hopkins climb a lot, possibly even higher than Calzaghe.

Also, Calzaghe could fall down the rankings and Hopkins could climb even if Calzaghe stops Hopkins late, if for a significant stretch of the fight he was dominated/outsmarted by Hopkins.

Same applies to Bute v. Joppy for example. Bute I have currently as the second best SMW after Kessler, by quite a distance (Calzaghe ranked at LHW now) and just ahead of Mundine.

If Joppy, whom I don't rank high at all anymore, gets stopped in the 4th, for example, this doesn't mean Bute climbs or even stays in 3rd. For example, if his defence hasn't improved and Joppy taggs him with his jab more than he should tagg a fighter as good as Bute, or catches him with too many rights, for example, Bute falls to 3rd, after Mundine, or draws with Mundine for 2nd, irrespective of whether Bute stops Joppy brutally in the 4th round or not. See what I mean?