Herol Graham vs Steve Collins 160lbs primes

I'm shocked at the poll results. Herol has a lot of fans it seems who overrate him.

Collins turned up in his biggest fights. The Nearly Man Graham always found a way to lose in his biggest fights and had a glass jaw, and has losses to all levels of boxers including domestic and European level boxers.

Collins was too tough, strong, and too clever for him, much more proven at world level.

Collins was 9-2 in World title fights. Graham is 0-3. You have to make Collins the favourite here.

 

I have to say i think you're a little bit harsh on Graham here.

He was supposed to get a shot at Marvin Hagler and took on Sumbu Kalambay bad decision making on Graham's part but losing to Kalambay is hardly a bad loss. Kalambay is one of the finest Middleweights of the last 50 years and most felt Graham deserved to beat him in their rematch.

Kalule was past his prime yes but he was coming off a win over Kalambay prior to facing Graham.

Holmes is also a good win in hindsight considering he become a Super Middleweight champion later on in his career.

I agree Graham probably had too much filler to his resume but it was going to be hard for him to get a shot at the title. When Graham was a top 10 ranked Middleweight Hagler was coming towards the end of his career and wanted big fights/big pay days. So it's not like Hagler is going to fight high risk/low reward fight vs a tricky defensive fighter like Graham who was unknown in America.

Well Jackson's corner were thinking of pulling Jackson out of the fight after the 3rd round. So saying Graham wasn't in a very strong position and close to victory isn't accurate because the corner obviously didn't have as much faith in Jackson as you did.

Pretty much everyone thinks Graham beat Kalambay the 2nd time i haven't seen a single scorecard from any fan that has ever had Kalambay winning that fight it was a total gift.

vs Brewer Graham was already considerably past his prime he'd been a pro for almost 20 years and had only fought 4 times in 6 years.

I don't understand the point you're making here.

In one sentence you're criticising Graham for ruling over weak domestic opponents.

And then in another sentence you're saying the stronger domestic opponents of later years actually avoided Graham.

So if anything doesn't that show how much of a H2H threat Graham is ? that he had a hard time getting big fights when notable opposition clearly avoided him ?

He wasn't knocked out Graham said in a interview Eubank knocked him down but then Graham schooled him for the rest of the session.

Collins wasn't as good at 160 and he wasn't quite the ultra aggressive fighter he was at 168 he was actually a bit more of a boxer at 160.

Collins was soundly beaten by an older Kalambay the same version of Kalambay a few fights before who Graham had on the floor twice and by most accounts deserved to win quite clearly.

Graham had a higher peak at Middleweight and should be quite clearly favoured in this match up.

Collins isn't on the same level of Kalambay, McCallum.

And Collins certainly doesn't carry anywhere near the power of Jackson.

 

Excellent post

 

Thank you for taking the time to respond and I enjoyed reading your post it is a good one.

There is nothing unreasonable about what you say. You have me on some of it.Some of what I've said is harsh but perhaps a little else is slightly misinterpreted.I will attempt to explain below

Regardless I'm sympathetic to the suggestion I am being overly harsh on Herol.

Herol was one of my very favourite fighters growing up. I began following his career around 1984.He was covered by both the BBC and later ITV

I'm not great with multi quoting so will try to respond in a linear manner.

I allude to Kalambay being a ' bad loss' because Graham was 38-0 and having waited all those years as British,European and Commonweath champion at Light Middleweight and not got a title shot and having for lack of a better word being somewhat protected. He than goes up to middleweight wins the European crown he was guaranteed a shot at one of the 2 vacant world titles suddenly available ) Ray Leonards WBC belt would also become vacant some months later . It was a ' bad loss' because by losing to Kalambay he lost one of the 6 slots and fell back considerably in the queue for a title shot. I saw the Kalambay fight live. No one knew how good the veteran was beforehand. Despite his fine record He was a unknown name. A European level fighter all his career .i think he'd gone to America once and lost and had recently lost to Kalule too. It was an unnecessary fight to take by his manager. Herol was known in America he had been showcased on the huge Las Vegas triple header in summer 1986 where Mcguigan lost his title in a fight of the year candidate and Thomas Hearns and Roberto Duran fought on the bill too. Grahams manager Barney Eastwood was very well connected in America. I maintain Eastwood should not have taken the Kalambay European defence and the fight was unneccesary.I wasn't commenting on Herol lost badly in the ring as I wrote it was very close after 10 i was saying it was a bad loss due to the career setback. Of course within a year beating McCallum it emerged Kalambay was an exceptional fighter a late bloomer.Another year later many wouldve called him the no 1 Middleweight than he lost shockingly to Nunn.

The rematch was a hard fought close contest. Herol was strong early. Than Kalambay came on I felt Sumbu just nicked it despite the 2 knockdowns. That's my impartial scorecard. Many others disagreed I understand.

Lindell Holmes best form was many years later starting from 1990 on at super Middleweight. In 1984 it wasn't the same thing he'd been stopped by Irving Hines and Dwight Davison and Kalule would beat him the fight after Graham.

I accept your point correcting me that Kalule wasn't considered past it until Graham beat him.

If you reread my criticising Herol for ruling over a weak domestic scene in the early-mid-late 1980s and than being avoided when the scene got stronger from 89-91 you'll understandcthe point I'm making but had written clumsily.

During the former phase Herol never fought the actual top world rated British middleweight in Tony Sibson thats where any criticism would stem from ruling over 'weak domestic competition". The public wanted the Sibson fight. In fairness Sibson and Graham have differing versions as to why it didn't happen.Beating Sibson would have got him a world title shot much faster as Tonybwas a big name in America and I think there's every chance he would have beaten Sibson.

Graham was avoided by the big British guns of the early 90's. My second point was Herol was damned if he did and damned if he didn't. The Eubank sparring knockout was Chris's version who also says in his autobiography he lost every other minute of sparring. I find it plausible. The same Eubank was equally honest in saying he wouldnt fight Herol in a pro contest.For the record I think the 1989 -91 version of Herol beats Watson ,Eubank,and Benn of the same time frame. Collins prime came later and I differ on the h2h result. I think Collins just outworks him down the stretch and wins a very close one.Just my opinion right or wrong.I could be wrong I'll admit. Yes Collins wasn't in the class of Mccallum and Kalambay head to head while Herol was. But Collins prime came later. I'm talking about the 168 Collins whereas the thread is saying 160 prime only.In that case you're right I'd agree Grahams 160 prime beats Collins 160 prime. But prime for prime 160-168 I give Collins a possibility to knick it and can see him doing it.

The very point I was making in my original post was Herol was a strong h2h fighter in his prime but was desperately unlucky in and out of the ring. The night before the first Kalambay fight some contempt worthy individual decided to ring him and tell him his girlfriend was cheating on him.it was utterly without foundation but disturbed his focus and he broke up with that girl for a decade and a half.. The Brewer fight hurt me very badly i was gutted. Herol was outboxing him and had floored him. But 5 bad seconds and it was over. Just the unluckiest fighter I ever saw. He was 7 minutes away.That comeback at 38 was incredible.

. I maintain Herol didn't have the fight quite won vs Jackson. He was rushing in recklessly with his chin up. Jackson had done this before and did it later. The corner were worried about the eye injury rather than Jackson taking a beating as such Julian had just come off retina surgery. I maintain Jackson was playing possum and was well aware the eye injury meant he only had a couple of rounds.His corner had told him as much.

For a genuine world champion level master boxer Herol made 3 crucial unforced errors in his career and it hurts me to write them
I) Throwing McCallum to the floor in a very close fight,having engaged in such jostling all night. Thereby costing himself a draw and automatic rematch.
Ii) Rushing in recklessly against Jackson when he should've cruised until Jackson got stopped on the eye injury.


Iii) Herol often had his hands down and stuck out his face and clowned around. It wasn't neccesary.

I'm open to these are very harsh points and they give me no pleasure to make them.He was definetely mismanaged at crucial times. He was just so unlucky. He fought 24 ultra competitive rounds with Kalambay.12 even rounds with Mccallum . He was an elite level operator one of the best Britain has produced and a very nice man out of the ring

 

Tough call, honestly. Both were seriously underrated in their own ways. Herol Graham was a nightmare stylistically, so slippery and hard to pin down, especially at 160. He made top fighters look bad without even needing to land much. If we're talking both guys at their peak at middleweight, I lean towards Graham on points. His movement and awkward angles would frustrate Collins, who relied more on pressure and toughness than pure technique.

That said, Collins was no slouch. He had a granite chin, insane cardio and a real ability to break guys down mentally. He wasn’t the most polished, but he was relentless. Against someone less elusive, he’d probably outwork them over the stretch. But with Graham, you’re dealing with a guy who could go 12 rounds barely getting touched, especially when he was switched on.

I just don’t see Collins catching him cleanly enough or often enough to win rounds, let alone stop him. Graham didn’t have one-punch power, but he’d be racking up points with clean shots while avoiding most of the return fire. Collins would keep coming, no doubt, but I think he’d spend too much of the fight swinging at air.

So yeah, I’d go Graham by decision. Not an easy fight and definitely not a blowout, but one where Herol’s awkwardness and ring IQ probably edge it on the cards.

 

Another excellent post

 

Good reply mate it's actually nice to discuss a topic with someone who lived through that era i wasn't even born when Graham was active so my knowledge is from reading and basically watching his career fights online.

Initially i did think some of your criticism was a bit harsh in some places but you explained your points alot better so kudos to you for that.

I'm not really going to go for a long reply again as there's not much i disagree with.

But in regards to Jackson i do think Jackson was in real trouble of being stopped both eyes were swollen and his corner were going to pull him out after 1 more round. So you saying Jackson was trying to set him up and all was well with him playing possum is not quite what transpired. Whilst Graham wasn't beating him from pillar to post he was clearly in control and giving Jackson a bit of boxing lesson and as i said his corner were that concerned that were on the verge of pulling him out.

In regards to Kalambay/Graham 2 i'm not going to go disagree with you too much as scoring is down to criteria and preference. But i have to say i thought Graham was quite a clear winner and i haven't seen a single scorecard from any other fan that has had Kalambay winning but as i said scoring is down to preference.

Finally as for Collins i'll maintain that Collins was a better H2H fighter at 168 than he was compared to 160. Collins was a bit more of a boxer at 160 and he didn't really have many notable wins at the weight with most of his better success coming at 168.

I believe Graham showed a higher level at 160 and basing it on how Collins got beat quite convincingly by Kalambay, McCallum. I'm quite convinced based on Graham having a much better showing against those fighters aswell as overall showing a higher peak level at 160. That Graham should be able to outpoint Collins over the distance.

At 168 i'd give Collins a better chance.

 

I can't argue with that