Hexalogie: Hagler (instead of LaMotta) 6 Times vs. Sugar Ray Robinson

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by CharlieFirpo85, Feb 23, 2021.

How many fights will Hagler win out of 6?

  1. 1

    5 vote(s)
    12.2%
  2. 2

    6 vote(s)
    14.6%
  3. 3

    9 vote(s)
    22.0%
  4. 4

    7 vote(s)
    17.1%
  5. 5

    5 vote(s)
    12.2%
  6. 6

    4 vote(s)
    9.8%
  7. 0

    5 vote(s)
    12.2%
  1. CharlieFirpo85

    CharlieFirpo85 Member Full Member

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    Imagine if Marvin Hagler had fought SRR 6 times instead of LaMotta:
    I consider Hagler h2h one of the best p4p ever. But maybe he would have had a very hard time with Ray's style?!

    What do you think: How would these fights turn out stylistically, tactically, dramaturgically?!?
    How many times could Hagler have won out of 6? (ofc all fights at middleweight)
     
  2. PhillyPhan69

    PhillyPhan69 Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    4-5 but I would favor him each time IMO
     
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  3. CharlieFirpo85

    CharlieFirpo85 Member Full Member

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    can you explain it? :)
     
  4. George Crowcroft

    George Crowcroft 'Snarky Little Gobshite' - IntentionalButt Full Member

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    I don't know, four, five or six. Hagler's an awful style for Robinson. All of Robinson's troubles came vs strong, bullish fighters. Guys like Basilio, Fullmer, Basora, Turpin, Tiger Jones, Zivic, Abrams, Servo, etc; all had the same things at the base of the style they used vs Robinson: core strength, low centre of gravity, and pressure fighting. Hagler opted to turn pressure fighter vs taller, rangier fighters. I can't imagine him not doing that vs someone like Robinson, who'd also be quicker. Furthermore, if he takes the place of LaMotta, he'd be fighting a welterweight Robinson four out of six. Meaning that strength difference is highlighted even more. I can't see Robinson winning in those situations.

    It would be fair to agree that Saint Valentine's Day Robinson would be facing an older Hagler, like Robinson was vs LaMotta. I'd absolutely pick Robinson at his absolutely peak over Hagler from Mugabi/Leonard.

    So my answer is five.
     
  5. CharlieFirpo85

    CharlieFirpo85 Member Full Member

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    TBH i expected different results. SRR is considered by many the best p4p of all time. So you think Hagler would have been like the ultimate missmatch for Ray? I agree on most points. However, there is one thing I see differently. You said "low center of gravity". I think Hagler has pretty long arms and legs for his size. I assume that Ray would have taken advantage of Haglers kinda crude and clumsy "transmission". Do you understand what I mean? (sry no native english speaker) Hagler sometimes made very rough long movements. Sometimes overextended, leaning far forward. I think SRR would have had some good opportunities to outmaneuver and counter...with his pivots and short turns, check hook etc. But ofc Hagler could take a hell of a punch.
     
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2021
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  6. Colonel Sanders

    Colonel Sanders Classic discussion : small vs big, old vs modern Full Member

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    SRR manages at least one win, but I dont think he would have 6 fights aginst a man who would beat him 2 out of 3 times. He would move on.
     
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  7. FrankinDallas

    FrankinDallas Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Robinson wins every time; although even a blind squirrel finds an acorn once in a while so chalk up one victory for
    Hagler. SRR too fast, too slick, too smart to lose to Hagler.
     
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  8. George Crowcroft

    George Crowcroft 'Snarky Little Gobshite' - IntentionalButt Full Member

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    I don't think it'd be the ultimate mismatch. They'd be good, competitive fights at the very highest level. It's just that Hagler had size and style advantages, as well as being just as consistent.

    When I mean low centre of gravity, I mean in relation to Robinson. Hagler was a good couple inches shorter, and I doubt Robinson would come to him. He'd fight out of a crouch and make himself even shorter. I think he'd clearly be the one who's in charge, physically.

    Sorry, mate. I don't get what you mean there. I can't say I've ever seen Hagler called crude or clumsy, and if you mean transition (as in, between stances) then I don't agree with that either. I don't think Hagler overextended or leant over his hips much at all, certainly not more than LaMotta or Basilio.
     
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  9. Blaxx

    Blaxx Member Full Member

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    Feb 8, 2018
    I'd favour SRR to beat him all the time, but Hagler might squeeze one in if the fights happened in the exact sort of order and amidst a similar schedule as they did vs La Motta.
     
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  10. UltimateDestroyer

    UltimateDestroyer Member Full Member

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    Nov 25, 2020
    Robinson competed fairly evenly for the most part in his fights with guys like Fullmer and Turpin. Hagler is a class above these. Robinson was good enough at middleweight to win 1 or 2 if Hagler doesn't have his best night.
    Hagler at his best wouldn't let Robinson have room to operate and would outwork him on the inside.

    Hagler is as good an infighter as anyone Robinson faced at middleweight and he also had just about everything else, long reach, southpaw or orthodox, Atg chin, great stamina and always in shape. Both on their best nights Hagler would win every time.
     
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  11. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    The Robinson i've seen on film against LaMotta would beat Hagler.

    He's probably too small to win some of those early contests though.

    So "it depends". Best for best, I'd pick Sugar each time, 6-0. Taking Robinson as he was when he faced LaMotta in real life, Hagler maybe 4/6.
     
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  12. META5

    META5 Active Member Full Member

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    I concur with George Crowcroft and McGrain - sub Hagler into the same time-line as La Motta and Robbi struggles to beat him, as whilst not stronger than La Motta IMO, Hagler was a better fighter and wouldn't hesitate to impose himself on the Robbi that La Motta found for the first few fights of the series.

    Like McGrain, I don't see Hagler besting the Robbi of the massacre extrapolating timelines of La Motta and Hagler at the respective points of their careers. The one thing that does give me a little concern is the Hagler that faced Duran and Leonard - was this symptoms of age and wars in the ring or was it something inside Hagler that suggested if he respected your skillset/legend or found your skillset to upset his timing, would he become somewhat passive at key turning moment opportunities. The best MW version of Robbi is a favourite in my books versus any version of Hagler from Duran onwards - I don't see the stamina issues that Leonard had in 87 in that version of Robbi and Robbi hit harder and was more battle tested - he's also not fighting the same fight that Hearns did.
     
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  13. HolDat

    HolDat Active Member Full Member

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  14. ETM

    ETM I thought I did enough to win. Full Member

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    I could see Hagler winning 1 fight, maybe 2. Robinson would have been too quick for him. Plenty of power to keep him honest.
     
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  15. he grant

    he grant Historian/Film Maker Full Member

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    The thirty year old Ray that first won the title would win on speed , stamina .. he was blazing fast and we saw the trouble Hagler had with Leonard’s speed. Keep in mind Robinson was also a brutal puncher. Hagler was not walking through him no matter what Hagler’s chin. Very tough fights but I favor Robinson over 15.
     
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