Hey, was hoping some of the top MMA posters here could clarify something for me - another poster (I forget the name) was saying last week on here that Big Nog and Demian Maia only use basic level BJJ, that Maia only does basic submissions, and that Nog has only ever utilized one non-basic submission (anaconda choke). I think I am right in also recalling that the guy intimated that there is basic level, mid level, and high level. If this is the case, can someone please explain to me what is a basic submission, what is a mid-level submission, and what is a high level submission? And if Maia and Nog are basic level fighters, then who in MMA is mid-level and who is high level?
I think he was trying to say only basic subs work, but he is terribly confused as to why. Basic subs work because if they didn't they wouldn't be considered so crucial. You learn some more complex subs as you progress, not only to look flashier, but because they are generally counters and recounters. So you need to be very highly skilled to pull of a "basic" sub in MMA, and in the process of becoming that skilled in BJJ, you are going to learn the flashier stuff and be able to apply it given the chance, but the chance is usually better to work "basic" stuff with the skill of a master and something will open up. He seems to think that learning more complicated subs and positions is useless. There are guys who specialize in what he would call "high level"; Imanari, Kitaoka, Aoki, and Toquinho Palhares are all absolutely unstopable with leglocks; very "high level" leglocks. Shaolin Ribero specializes in guillotines that are anything but "basic", yes they are guillotines but the setups and finishes to them are very complex. Another seemingly "basic" sub is the arm-in guillotine, which Renzo's guys are masters of; it looks just like a regular guillotine with the opponents arm inside, but the technique is very different in terms of where you put your leverage.
Basic subs are called high percentage subs for a reason but its already been proven time and time again that you need elaborate subs in your arsenal becuase Gogoplatas amongst other moves have been locked on.
I would equate it to football. A power run between the tackles is very simple with no trickery but can be the most important play for a teams asenal.
Some brown or even purple belts can make their submissions work better in an MMA fight than a black belt can but would likely not get the better of the black belt in a pure BJJ match wearing the gi etc. For example... Big Nog at his very best in PRIDE was the most effective BJJ fighter Ive ever seen in all of MMA but I hear he`s only a brown belt wearing the gi because he almost always trains no gi... Ive done BJJ & its different wearing the gi as opposed to without, there are a lot of chokes etc that you can do using the opponents gi, obviously you cant do that in an MMA fight.
Your first part is true. Big Nog, however, is absolutely a black belt, and has given out his own black belts.
He probably is now no doubt but when he was the top HW in the world back in PRIDE he was a brown belt wearing the gi but no doubt black belt no gi. He very rarely trains with the gi & thats understandable, no gi BJJ training is far better for training for an MMA fight for obvious reasons.
He was a black belt, in the gi, in 1999, 3rd place at CBJJ championships. I briefly trained with Marcelo Monteiro, a good friend of his.
I remember Nogueira having a black belt when he fought in Pride too. Relson used to talk about him and his brother saying, "they have jiujitsu for blood."
Wow, you guys can't even quote me correctly. Arguing against an argument I never made is called a straw man, at least have the decency quote me accuractly. I never once said Nog and Maia are low level bjj fighters, I said their submission wins are basic level submissions.
Calm down, the thread wasn't intended as an attack on you. If you read the opening post, you will see that I initially quote you correctly re Nog and Maia using "basic level submissions". The intention of the thread was not to prove you wrong, not at all, it was merely to ask what peoples' definitions of 'mid' and 'high' level submissions and 'mid' and 'high' level submission fighters were. I found what you were saying intriguing, so opened it up to the forum. It was not a personal attack, far from it.
It wasn't intriguing at all. It was complete nonsense in fact. He keeps insisting that basic moves = basic level bjj, which is absurd. It's like saying scoring with a basic move like a layup in the NBA means all you need is basic level basketball skills to be successful.
The debate which his statements provoked was intriguing to me, me being someone who is only just learning about BJJ. Is that alright with you?
BJJ is at it's best when it is kept simple. The basic moves are the most potent. All the fancy stuff is hard to setup and harder to get to payoff. The highest level fighters are the ones you're going to see doing the most basic moves over and over again - but if you follow their careers you will see the advanced ways they set the submissions up by predicting the ways their opponent will turn and tricking them into doing so. The fight between Nogueira and Tim Sylvia was a perfect example of this. Everything Nog did just prior to the submission was all in service to set that exact submission up. Then when Sylvia defended against what he thought was the attack - Nogueira hooked the choke he was waiting for and finished the fight.
