Highest Jack Johnson Rating?

These were the guys James J Jeffries ducked and retired rather than fight them

 

I always have a hard time properly rating Jack Johnson among the HW elite. He was certainlty talented and perhaps the greatest defensive fighter of them all but it's his title defenses that give me reason to pause. As champion he fought a poor list of opponents. Stanley Ketchel was a middleweight...Could you imagine Ali fighting Monzon or Wlad fighting Hopkins. No sanctioning body would ever allow it. Fireman Jim Flynn? "nuff said. That fight was a farce. Frank Moran? Mediocre at best. Jim Jeffries? In his prime it would've been a hell of a fight but 5 years out of the ring , having to shed 100lbs of lard with no tune up fight (or fights) to hone his lost reflexes and timing. Let's be serious! We know that Johnson fought good fighters on the way up and had to fight them numerous times because he could'nt get a shot at the title. It's just too bad that THOSE fights were'nt captured on film. Watching Jack take on the legendary Langford would have been a treat! Unfortunately as champion he did'nt take on anyone worthy of his great talents which is why it's hard to rate him among the ATG's. If only he had a Frazier or a Dempsey or a Louis or Marciano that was around at the same time. Men who would really test his great skill. Then it would be easier to properly place him among the greats. I feel he belongs up there but how high is not all that easy in my opinion.

 

you just showed a video of a 36 year old fat out of shape jack johnson..........you might as well show mike tyson vs danny williams

 

This is a good point. Johnson actually didn't look that bad to me given he was 36. Moran was a decent contender of the era. You showed highlights of Lewis' entire career, hardly a fair contrast, although Lewis at 36 was fighting perhaps better than anyone else ever did at that age.

 

I think the herky jerky quality of the film also has to be taken into consideration. Nobody believes that people actually moved the way they did in those old Charlie Chaplin films. Why should it be any different when looking at film of fighters from that era?

 

I know, u get that video of Johnson and then a highlight reel of Lennox??!!!! Very unbiased (not!)

 

I dont think there is 1 imo

 

Johsnon sits outside the top 10 for me, I really don't get the idea of putting him atop the heavyweight rankings. We all know about his title run and it was weak. Two things I notice about Johnson supporters is the way things tend to get skewd to favor him. They rate him highly and present the facts in such a way to support their already high ranking of him.

He get credit for his day as a black champion, and there are a few good wins in there. Childs, Ferguson, Martin, and maybe a couple others seem like good fighters. But nothing special, these are the type of fighters all good heavies beat. For some reason Johnson gets a lot of credit for beating Langford, McVey, and Jeanette. But should he really? To me, no. Langford was a jr middle by todays standards. Since when does beating up jr middleweights count toward ones heavyweight accomplishments? It shouldn't.

McVey and Jeanette, two good fighters were inexperienced and Johnson was a 50 fight veteran and the black champ. I see little difference in those as if Holyfield or Tyson were to beat Bowe in Lewis around 89 or 90. Those fights against Jeanette an McVey don't add up to a whole lot when taken under the right circumstances.

Johsnon lost some fighths when he was a 30 fight veteran to Griffin, Hart, and Choyinski. Not a prime Johnson, but you don't ignore those when you take into account Johnson had fought professionally 30-40 times for those fights.

I also think Johnson looks good on film, from what we have and can make out of it. But who are these fights against. Old and 6 year inactive Jeffries, Burns and Ketchell 2 guys who were horribly undersized to deal with Johnson. I wouldn't hold the Willard fight against him.

The way I see it Johnson beat some good fighters on his way to the title he also lost some around the same period. Some of his biggest wins look good only on paper but really don't add a whole lot to his legacy. I'd put Johnson in my top 15 but not 10.

 

I consider Johnson to be the No3 all time heavyweight.

He sits clearly behind Louis and Ali but clearly ahead of the other lineal champions for my money.

Louis and Ali are teir A.

Johnson is teir B.

Everybody else is teir C.

 

To me, the word champion means that you are the best fighter around and willing to prove that against the best. When you stop doing so, the word "champion" is void. I hardly considered Foreman champion after 1995 when he refused to take on any top10 heavyweight.

Now, Johnson refused to face not just the best, but also the second best and third best (add fourth best for Smith) during his entire title reign which was a joke. Yes, his black title run was impressive as well as his longetivity , but not enough for top5 in my book. The fact that he beat Langford when Sam was a middleweight (it went 15) and Jeannette/Mcvey when they were a few-fight teenagers is okay, but not hardly makes up for the fact he ducked them when they were real challenges.

 

Johnsons black title run is his legacy.

In an era where the colour line was in effect and the oficial champion didnt fight all the best contenders he cleaned house.

His official title run is just icing on the cake.

 

My conclusions on this issue.

1. He really did not want to face Langford but might have been induced with a big enough bribe.

2. He did not want to fight Jeanette either but again might have been induced with a big enough bribe.

3. He would have fought McVea without hesitation, if the price was right, and if McVea was stupid enough to take the fight.

4. He wanted to fight Gunboat Smith a lot more than Smith wanted to fight him.

 

Excellent post! I'm surprised Johnson is rated so highly on this Forum I assumed I was alone in my ranking of him ,I have him at no2 behind Ali and in front of Dempsey and Louis.

 

Chris does that mean that the Title was vacant from March 9th 1971 till
Jan 22 1973 , as far as your concerned?