Highest p4p: Monzon, Hagler, McCallum or Hearns?

Monzon
Hearns
Hagler
Mccallum

 

for me, those losses add to them a lot. they both learned their trade the old fashioned way, and won rematches, sometimes twice, often knocking them out the next time. i think that 'fight all comers' mentality helped to make monzon and hagler the adaptable champions that they became.

 

He is a definite fourth because he has the weakest resume of the four, and he has the least ability of the four. He's a clear fourth. If you look at a post I made earlier today on the General, you will see that I consider McCallum a stone-cold ATG, that I am a fan of his, and that I believe he is often criminally underrated and overlooked. However, for me he is still some way below the other three guys listed in this poll, yet still an amazing fighter in his own right who had a genuinely great career.

 

Not remotely.

Pre-prime or post-prime defeats never have the same impact for me as prime defeats.

When a guy is learning his trade or adapting to a new level of opposition (ie if he has just arrived on the world stage and is facing a higher class of fighter than he is used to) then losses are inevitable, unless the boxer is being micro-managed as a lot of fighters are in the current era.

And we all know that defeats occur once a guy has past his physical prime, losses which he would not have incurred at his peak.

Unless these losses are to utter bums or are devastating KOs or shut-out dominations, they don't factor into my thinking too much when it comes to judging a career. Especially not if they were avenged.

Defeats during prime must be taken into consideration though.

 

all time??? or middleweight?
All time
Hearns
Hagler
Monzon
McCallum
middleweight
Hagler
Monzon
Hearns
McCallum

 

:huh How exactly is...

- getting stopped by Hagler in 3
- stopped by Iran Barkley in 3
- beating Doug DeWitt on points
- knocking out Juan Domingo Roldan

better than...

- going 1-1 with Sumbu Kalambay
- beating Herol Graham and Michael Watson both in their home country
- beating Steve Collins
- going 0-1-1 with prime James Toney, with many people believing you deserved to win the 2nd fight

???


Please explain this one to me, O Objective One... :rofl

 

I am confused a little at wheer you want me to rank them. at middleweight? so you are looking at Tommy's struggles and not his wins? You can thrown the Hagler fight out since Marvin on that night was unbelievable. Barkley? As much Hearns fault as Barkley's punch. I always said if Tommy fought safe and jabbed and counterpunched he would not lose, and he has the fights to prove it. All time Beating Cuevas, Benitez, and Duran easily. all great. and Virgil Hill completely outshines anything McCallum did regardless of objective or subjective. At middleweight? Hearns stopped Shuler, and lightheavyweight would apply since that is an even higher weight and he outboxed Hill and stopped Andries. Outboxed Olajide at 168. Hearns did not fight much at middleweight.
As for Mike, James Toney is good but inconsistent and Mike had a huge experience advantage and still got a draw and lost once, the 3rd fight was a different factor. Steve Collins? Compared to Shuler? Didn't Mike lose to Tiozzo at the higher weights which applies since Hearns fought higher also, and Tiozzo whom Hill beat who Hearns beat easily? You will say Mike was old when he lost to Tiozzo. McCallums resume does not compare to Hearns all time, and at middleweight Mike's opposition is still not great. Herol was also getting older himself when Mike beat him. Anyone who says it does is not being objective themselves. I assume you are talking middleweight here since Mike all time compared to Hearns does not compare much.

I think Mike losing his first fight at middleweight hurts his ranking. When he beat Kalambay later, that was post Nunn, which a loss like that cannot help anyone. Mike at middleweight was like his whole career a little. fighting top guys, but not the elite. You can rate him over Graham and Collins, but does that really get him over Hearns? Even at middleweight?

 

Monzon
Hearns
Hagler
McCallum

 

p4p I would put Hearns over all of them but Pernell over him.

 

I really thought I had made my point absolutely clear as day. Apparently not. I will make it again, in even more simple fashion.

You said:

So you rate Hearns over McCallum at middleweight. That is what you said.

So you tell me which is better between the major fights on their mw resumes and records:

Hearns - 2 wins (1 by stoppage), 2 losses (both by stoppage)
Wins over DeWitt (pts) and Roldan (KO)
Losses to Hagler (KO) and Barkley (KO)


McCallum -4 wins (1 by stoppage), 2 losses (0 by stoppage), 1 draw
Wins over Kalambay, Watson (TKO), Graham and Collins
Losses to Kalambay, and Toney (controversial/disputed)
Draw with Toney



In fact, all I've really done there is re-write what I wrote before, and you somehow didn't understand it first time, so I'll simplify even more to avoid another fuzzy re-questioning:


Are a points win over Doug DeWitt and a stoppage over Juan Domingo Roldan as good as wins over Sumbu Kalambay, Michael Watson, Herol Graham and Steve Collins?

Simple question, requiring only a simple answer. :good

 

Hearns fought other middleweights. Ernie Singletary, Marcos Geraldo,Jeff McCracken, Murray Sutherland, Marvin Hagler, James Shuler, Doug Dewitt,Juan Roldan, Iran Barkley. yes I think Hearns edges McCallum but it could be a draw. Beating Kalambay was after the loss to Kalambay after Sumbu lost to Nunn, Graham was his best win, which does not eclipse Hearns middleweight career. Doug Dewitt and Shuler outshine Collins. 7-2 for Hearns. I think Hearns comes out ahead and the fight with Hagler as a loss is still the most significant middleweight fight in the last 30 years. Hearns was 32-1 at welt. 5-0 at 154, 7-2 at middleweight 2-0-1 at super middleweight and 6-1 at light heavyweight, and 8-1 at cruiserweight. I think I was accurate. I am not sure.

 

That sums you up right there MAG.

I'd have Hearns p4p slightly ahead of Monzon..who in turn is a little bit ahead of Hagler..who is a fair bit but not ridiculously ahead of McCallum.

 

well I ran the list of Hearns fights in my head. So I am not sure if Earl Butler in Sept of 1995 was at light heavyweight or cruiserweight. I guess I could check on the internet. I know that Hearns went back down to light heavyweight in 1996 with his fight against Karl Willis and Ed Dalton (which I was at live when I lived in California), yet then came back and fought at cruiserweight against Jay Snyder at Joe Louis Arena.