Highest p4p: Monzon, Hagler, McCallum or Hearns?

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by Bokaj, Jun 29, 2011.


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  1. horst

    horst Guest

    I disagree. We saw in the fights with Kalambay, Herol Graham and Donald Curry that McCallum had an Achilles heel for fast, silky boxers. I don't believe Hagler had any comparable Achilles heel. Hagler was the supreme ring general. The rifle jab, good movement, accurate punching, ability to box from the outside or rumble on the inside, I think he was more versatile, more adaptable, more well-rounded, and I would contend he had the more varied arsenal. And I don't think Hagler was reliant on speed at all.
     
    horst, Jul 1, 2011
    horst, Jul 1, 2011
    #61
  2. Bokaj

    Bokaj Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    He was 3-1 against these guys, so I wouldn't call it that much of an Achilles heel. As far as I can tell, Hagler was 1-1 against guys with similar speed. When he slowed down, he looked clearly less effective (Mugabi, Leonard). A great deal is made of that he had slowed against Leonard, but I think he still was at least as fast as McCallum ever was. At least in terms of hand and foot speed.

    While I think Hagler was very adaptable, well-rounded and versatile, I don't think he was more so than Mike. Taking out Kalule, Jackson, Curry and Watson in the pocket, stalking McRory, Graham and Kalule, and boxing Toney... I think that's a remarkable show of versatility.

    I also think it's clear that Hagler relied on one particular hand than most of the fighters of similar greatness. His left wasn't bad, but it wasn't nearly as good as the right IMO.
     
    Bokaj, Jul 1, 2011
    Bokaj, Jul 1, 2011
    #62
  3. horst

    horst Guest

    It was though. Kalambay got the better of him over 2 fights, Graham's style was the problem vs Mike as Mike was a clearly superior fighter overall, and it was only McCallum's power that bailed him out vs Curry. This stylistic problem of Mike's would surely have to be taken into account when considering his h2h position at his best weights.

    I think more or less every fighter in history looked less effective once he slowed down. Mike did as well. But he also had real problems with a certain style when he was in his prime. Hagler didn't.

    That is not a particularly significant/valuable/meaningful point IMO. McCallum was accustomeed to being that pace, whereas Hagler was diminished from his own prime. If Hagler had been that pace his whole career, he'd have adapted and been comfortable there too.

    Come on man. He was obviously more adaptable and versatile than Mike. Even Mike and his own fan club would concede that one.

    I don't see a great range of versatility in those fights, despite your varied descriptions. Btw, it's McCrory not McRory.

    He still had a wide and varied range of punches he could throw going forward or going back.
     
    horst, Jul 1, 2011
    horst, Jul 1, 2011
    #63
  4. Bokaj

    Bokaj Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    He trapped Curry into the KO, after getting into the fight, and he did after all beat Graham comfortably and went 1-1 against Kalambay.

    Yes, it was the style he struggled most with it, but going 3-1 with opponents of that style and the quality of Curry, Graham and Kalambay is NOT the sign of mighty stylistical struggles.

    Skilled counterpuncher (in older and much smaller Duran)?


    Har do say. Hagler's style did rely quite a bit on those legs. He leapt in with his right hook at times and also put his feet together when boucing away from opponents. His in and out movement were reliant on speed and stamina more than any of McCallum's movements.

    Obviously how? He could obviously box very well and go on the offensive very well. But as I pointed out, McCallum could as well.

    I like how Hagler turned the search and destroyer against Hearns, but in his other two really high profile fights (Duran and Leonard) I didn't see a great adaptability.

    I find that strange.

    His left was good but probably not great, though. Duran didn't think much of it and Gil Clancy is dumbfounded as to why he doesn't throw it straight to Leonard's body when commentating their fight. Also against Minter, Sibson, Hamsho etc the major part of the damage is done with the right. He had one of the absolutely best lead hands ever, though. Quite probably the best.
     
    Bokaj, Jul 4, 2011
    Bokaj, Jul 4, 2011
    #64
  5. MAG1965

    MAG1965 Loyal Member banned

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    I agree. I think Hearns made a bit of a mistake in the Hearns fight. Regardless of Hagler knowing he had to fight that kind of aggressive, Hearns insulting Hagler at every stage of the prefight and many city tour, this adding to the fact of Hearns and Emanual cancelling the first fight in 1982 made Hagler angry personally. So when he finally fought Hearns his anger made him fight the brawl he needed to fight. It made the difference. I am not sure just knowing he had to fight that way would have been enough to get him to the frenzy he eventually fought with Hearns. Everything came together. in other fights Hagler had a hard time changing his style once he started with the wrong style. Hagler is lucky he has the Hearns fight to be remembered by. It is his legacy.

    Hagler was great because his style usually was enough to bust guys up with his great jab and 75 inch reach and southpaw stance and physical strength, and then he could pore it on as the rounds went on and knock the guy out. He had 52 knockouts in 62 fights. A better knockout percentage than Hearns when Tommy had the same amount of fights, yet not against the same level of opposition.
     
    MAG1965, Jul 4, 2011
    MAG1965, Jul 4, 2011
    #65
  6. anarci

    anarci Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Mccaullm is an atg but id asy those 3 a tier higher..

    Wouldnt argue how you placed the other 3.. As pfp Atg greats i have them 15-20 or now lower than 25. Where as i have Mccallu around top 75.

    Mine
    Monzon
    Hagler
    Hearns









    Mccallum
     
    anarci, Jul 5, 2011
    anarci, Jul 5, 2011
    #66
  7. Bokaj

    Bokaj Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Very little is said about Hagler's first two defeats (to Watts and Monroe), so I'll chip in:

    1. In terms of age and number of pro fights Hagler was about at the same stage in his career that Leonard was when he faced Benitez and Duran. From the footage I've seen of the first Watts fight Hagler looks mature in terms of technique and physique.

    2. Both were skilled, rangy boxer types. Not terribly unlike Leonard, but of course less flashy and with less ability.

    3. The defeat to Watts was very close while the one to Monroe seems to have been clear.

    4. Both defeats were emphatically avenged by Hagler (two times against Monroe), but both Watts and Monroe had also started piling up defeats in general at that point.
     
    Bokaj, Jul 5, 2011
    Bokaj, Jul 5, 2011
    #67
  8. The Morlocks

    The Morlocks Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Duran won 9 rds. It was NOWHERE near close. And by the way, after Hagler, once Hearns got past Shuler, he was shot. He had trouble w/ everyone after and including Roldan.
     
    The Morlocks, Jul 14, 2011
    The Morlocks, Jul 14, 2011
    #68
  9. Bokaj

    Bokaj Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    When it comes to the weight climbing on the part of McCallum and Hearns it should be noted that it was done during the period when the day-before-weigh-in was introduced. That essentially means one more weight class.
     
    Bokaj, Jul 14, 2011
    Bokaj, Jul 14, 2011
    #69
  10. Unforgiven

    Unforgiven VIP Member banned Full Member

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    That looks right to me.
     
    Unforgiven, Jul 14, 2011
    Unforgiven, Jul 14, 2011
    #70
  11. PowerPuncher

    PowerPuncher Loyal Member Full Member

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    Completely disagree on the Curry fight, I thought it was pretty much even and McCallum was steadily breaking him down to set up the KO. I'd also say he was 1-1 against Kalambay who I rate as 1 of the best H2H MWs of all time, thought the first was closer than he gets credit for. Also bear in mind McCallum bossed Kalule who beat Kalambay - a fight a few posters saw differently, I haven't seen it
     
    PowerPuncher, Jul 14, 2011
    PowerPuncher, Jul 14, 2011
    #71
  12. PowerPuncher

    PowerPuncher Loyal Member Full Member

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    :yep
     
    PowerPuncher, Jul 14, 2011
    PowerPuncher, Jul 14, 2011
    #72
  13. AlFrancis

    AlFrancis Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Good comment!
     
    AlFrancis, Jul 14, 2011
    AlFrancis, Jul 14, 2011
    #73
  14. lora

    lora Fighting Zapata Full Member

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    McCallum fought a leaden legged weight drained kalule who really should have gone back to middle after the Leonard fight.A good win for him nonetheless, but i wouldn't compare kalule of the two fights.Mind you, the main difference was probably that Kalule's strengths were inclined to excelling against cutie technician types that don't hit hard or won't try and forcefully dictate pace.

    imo regarding the Curry fight, that was lost because of Don's lack of awareness at the wrong moment-ie stepping straight back to admire his own work without expecting a counter. no one had been broken down to any significant degree.Though i'd tend to agree with anyone saying McCallum was going to gain the edge the longer the fight went on
     
    lora, Jul 14, 2011
    lora, Jul 14, 2011
    #74
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