"His hands are too low!"

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by cross_trainer, Sep 17, 2009.


  1. cross_trainer

    cross_trainer Liston was good, but no "Tire Iron" Jones Full Member

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    I hear this a LOT about pre-Louis fighters. At first, I thought there was some merit to the complaint. Now I'm not so sure.

    Put somebody with ZERO experience into the ring and start throwing punches at him. What does he do? He raises his hands to defend against the blows. Even chimps and gorillas do this. So why would a group of people with 100+ years of accumulated fighting experience FAIL to do such an obvious thing if it really is as essential as many believe? Were they incredibly stupid?

    Worse, the evidence shows that fighters WERE taught to keep their hands up during the 1790-1840 period. Check the manuals and you'll see something rather similar to a modern boxing stance. For those who believe that their "low hands" would get them massacred today, please explain why the entire boxing establishment spontaneously decided to do change their style around 1850 into something that would get them hit more often.





    My own answer is that the 1860-1890 "style" of boxing relied upon other techniques for defense, and was built around a different set of principles. But I'm open to other suggestions if you can suggest a plausible explanation for the above.
     
  2. MrMarvel

    MrMarvel Well-Known Member Full Member

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    You make a very logical argument and I agree with your conclusion.

    Boxing in that period was more of a clinching type of affair. The idea was to shut down the offense of the opponent. The stance allows for the fighter to control his opponent's arms as he bulls his way in.
     
  3. MrMarvel

    MrMarvel Well-Known Member Full Member

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    I think this could be an effective strategy in today's game, but it would make for incredibly boring fights.
     
  4. GPater11093

    GPater11093 Barry Full Member

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    watch the fighters the right hand is often around the chin which is the correct way these days.

    My reasoning is the gloves was smaller so if you put your hands up in front of your face and took punches on your gloves the thin leather of the gloves wouldnt protect the base of your hand tearing your cheek bones. Even the 10oz gloves do it but they arnt as basd
     
  5. cross_trainer

    cross_trainer Liston was good, but no "Tire Iron" Jones Full Member

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    My post wasn't directed at your Johnson argument (which I thought you made rather well). Actually, I'd decided to create this post long before the Johnson thread came up, but I didn't have the time. :good

    The problem that you mention with glove blocking is one of the main reasons that they used blocks that were like a horizontal adaptation of karate blocks.
     
  6. GPater11093

    GPater11093 Barry Full Member

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    i didnt think it was like te Johnson thread, a very intresting thread this

    i know nothing about Karate so whats a horizontal karate block?
     
  7. cross_trainer

    cross_trainer Liston was good, but no "Tire Iron" Jones Full Member

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    There isn't any such thing, but it was the closest I could come to an explanation. There are vertical karate blocks like this:

    This content is protected


    Now imagine the block pushing the punch more to the side rather than straight up. You can see it in the Corbett-McCoy footage on Youtube pretty clearly.
     
  8. GPater11093

    GPater11093 Barry Full Member

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    yreh i get you

    stil when i see footage of the era i see alot of parrys with a high right hand

    infact upon some research i came across the name of Mick Dunne who according to some accounts was teh first boxer to use a 'High Left lead' block.
     
  9. Unforgiven

    Unforgiven VIP Member banned Full Member

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    Lots of great fighters held their hands low, not just old-timers. Modern fighters too.
    It's angles and techniques that protects the chin, not holding the hands high.
    It's amateurish to stand square on and just drop the hands in a show of arrogance, but it's not amateurish to fight out of a correct stance that carries the lead hand low.
    It's often amateurish to just hold the hands high in a peek-a-boo and think that's going to suffice to protect the head.

    Besides, the body is the bigger target.
     
  10. mcvey

    mcvey VIP Member Full Member

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    The peeka boo sometimes works against you because it restricts your view. Floyd Patterson?

    Low hands ?
    Jimmy Slattery
    Tommy Loughran
    Gene Tunney
    Jack Johnson
    Dulio Loi

    Some thought they could box a bit.
     
  11. Seamus

    Seamus Proud Kulak Full Member

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    Fighters who were good at controlling distance and had exceptional reflexes. Also, think Ali & Jones, Jr. The style suits these fighters.

    On the otherhand, it is always sad (read: hilarious) to see fighters not as gifted try to pull this off.
     
  12. mcvey

    mcvey VIP Member Full Member

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    You usually need fast feet too.
    Kirkland Laing fought with his hands down, I watched him easily out point Colin Jones in two fights only to lose concentration late on, and get blasted out both times.
     
  13. Mr Butt

    Mr Butt Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    just watched benny leonard fight tendler on you tube ,leonards hands are low but he is fast on his feet,fients well and clinches quickly
     
  14. mcvey

    mcvey VIP Member Full Member

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    It is the feet that are the key, IMO.
     
  15. janitor

    janitor VIP Member Full Member

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    Once in a blue moon you get a fighter whose reflexes and ability to judge distances are so good that a high guard would just get in his way. Muhamad Ali is the obvious example and there are others such as Jimmy Wilde.

    Short of this ideal you will always get fighters who prefer to use a lower guard to draw their oponents punches and set up counters. The better ones will get away with it far more often than not.

    It is certainly inapropriate to make a general and unqualified criticism of all fighters who use a lower guard at the absolute elite level.