Historical Anologs of Boxer Puncher Rematches?

Discussion in 'World Boxing Forum' started by andrewa1, Dec 5, 2018.



  1. andrewa1

    andrewa1 Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Wilder Fury is the best example I can think of at the high levels of the HW division featuring a pure boxing performance vs a pure punching performance, to relatively equal results. Or at least, results demanding a rematch. I'd love a compendium of multiple fights featuring a similar duality. The traditional expectation is the boxer does better in rematches against the puncher. Largely that's consistent with the fights I could recall.

    So, please post any fight series that you can think of, especially HW with the ultimate results. Not all of them are a perfect fit: how many pure boxers vs pure puncher series are there? But I'm listing those who best fit the criteria. A lot I list are high level, but they certainly don't need to be Hall of Famers, any example featuring two fighters of comparable levels is welcome.

    My initial list:

    Ali Frazier I, II, and III: Puncher won initially, boxer won latter two

    Tunney Dempsey I and II: Boxer won both, puncher did better second time around though

    Wlad v Peter I and II: This is one of the closest analogues I could think of, even featuring multiple kd's in the first fight. Boxer won both fights, did much better in the second fight though.

    Adamek v Cunningham I and II: "Puncher" won both fights, much more clearly and less controversially the first fight, however.

    Ward Kovalev I and II: Boxer "won" both fights, the second somewhat less controversially than the first.

    Tua vs Rahman I and II: Puncher won first, draw in second.

    Jimmy Young v Earnie Shavers I and II: Puncher won first, draw in second.

    So, out of the seven fight series, 6 of them the boxer improved over the course of the series against the puncher. Obviously a very incomplete list and I fully admit my memory may be influenced by seeking historical validation for my belief Tyson Fury will do better in the rematch against Wilder. Please post your own historical comparison series, would be great to have a much more full list.
     
  2. Lesion of Doom

    Lesion of Doom Member Full Member

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    Good thread.

    Not HW, but I would Mayorga chasing Forrest around the ring in their rematch. Jackson/McClellan II features Jackson getting KOd in the first round, though calling G-Man a "boxer" is stretching it a bit. But he did do better the second time against a fading Jackson.

    Lewis/Rahman II, obviously
    Bute/Andrade II
    Byrd/Wladimir II (Byrd overmatched worse second time)
    Jones/Tarver II

    I think your point stands, but these comparisons obviously are going to be imperfect. IMO, Wilder's best chance at a win is to become less of a homerun artist. I think the 2015 Wilder (think Stiverne I) could do a little better, but he may be too committing to his power now.
     
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  3. andrewa1

    andrewa1 Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Anybody else? Would like to get more matches.
     
  4. The Funny Man 7

    The Funny Man 7 Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Jimmy Young vs. George Foreman

    Johnny Nelson vs. Ezra Seller (PURE puncher right here. Sellers was basically a walking nuclear missile silo)

    Giovanni Segura vs. Ivan Calderon: Segura was a puncher by the standards of that division

    Paul Spadafora vs. Victoriano Sosa
     
  5. Rock0052

    Rock0052 Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    The trend is for the boxers to perform better in the rematches. Some examples, mostly HW, of that:

    Hopkins-Pascal
    Wlad-Brewster
    Fury-Chisora
    Wilder-Stiverne
    Holyfield--Tyson
    Ingo-Patterson
    Ali-Liston (any funny business in the rematch notwithstanding)
    Ali-Cooper


    An example against that trend would be Toney-Peter. Marciano is also one of the rare punchers who did better than the boxers in rematches (Ezzard, Jersey Joe).
     
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  6. andrewa1

    andrewa1 Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Great examples. I thought about Ingo/Patterson, but just wasn't sure which one should be considered the power puncher. In retrospect, I think it falls perfectly in line, though. Patterson may have had as much power, but he lost via power shot initially, and then, as the better boxer, compensated and won the latter matches.

    And you are right, Marciano is the perfect counterexample. That's troublesome in a way, because Wilder kind of reminds me of him, as far as reliance on pure power, and his lack of boxing skills and his unorthodoxy.
     
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  7. GALVATRON

    GALVATRON Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Puncher vs Boxer in reference to Saturday's fight.


    Most punchers were at a speed disadvantage. Here the boxer who is Fury is slower. The puncher here is also smaller which is usually the other way around .

    In this case you have a really top boxer vs someone who throws two punches at a time and rarely right away, Wilder paused a lot by a split second ...a skilled fighter with good reflexes will be harder to hit. Fury was hit by the hard shots when he wasn't looking at Wilder and leaning down which is inviting disaster which what happened.

    in a rematch Either Fury will put more on his shots and hurt Wilder and stay out of stupid spots and k.o Wilder early or win a UD or Wilder is going to be patient and force Fury into a closer fight and knock him out late at a heavier weight.

    Fury in this instance has the advantage so the technical boxer with size should defeat the puncher with Speed. And it's significant size though I'm unsure who I would favor here if Wilder has a feel for his movement as he got real comfortable after the 9th round just waiting on that shot bc Fury became repetitive.

    A reverse flip side to this is Holyfield vs Bowe.

    Holyfield had the skill and Bowe who had about 40 pounds over him but slower won twice. In the end the big man wore him down and that's why there's weight classes not skill ones....regarding other classes. Stats will show you the heavier guy wins more then not in a two skilled fighters fight.

    i said going into the Fight that Furys major advantage was Wilder s 210 or so weight fight night. The puncher who can't box is already at a disadvantage. I would pick against Wilder if he's below 220 again.
     
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2018
  8. Ph33rknot

    Ph33rknot El gran campeĆ³n Mexicano Full Member

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  9. OvidsExile

    OvidsExile Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Pep vs Saddler. Puncher won 3/4.
    Marciano vs Charles. Marciano won by UD then by Ko.
    Marciano vs Walcott. Marciano ko13 then ko1.
    Shavers vs Young. Shavers ko then draw.
    Shavers vs Holmes. Holmes UD then Holmes ko.
    Segura vs Calderon. Segura by ko8 then ko3.
    Sonny Liston KO'd Patterson both times in lik
     
  10. Drew101

    Drew101 Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Punchers improving against Boxers:

    Joe Louis vs Billy Conn. Louis came from behind to win the first fight by KO 13, and then dominated en route to a KO 8.
    Tim Witherspoon vs James Smith. Witherspoon (boxer) won a clear UD, but lost the rematch via KO 1.


     
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  11. NoNeck

    NoNeck Pugilist Specialist booted Full Member

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    I think this is what you're looking for considering the fight was a draw:

    Bruno Girard vs. Byron Mitchell: the first was a draw and Mitchell lost a UD in the rematch
     
  12. Dubblechin

    Dubblechin Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Jim Jeffries vs. Jim Corbett 1 (Corbett way ahead, Jeffries stops Corbett in Rd 23)
    Jim Jeffries vs. Jim Corbett 2 (Jeffries stops Corbett in Rd 10)
    Jim Jeffries vs. Bob Fitzsimmons 1 (Fitz way ahead, Jeffries stops Fitz in 11)
    Jim Jeffries vs. Bob Fitzsimmons 2 (Jeffries stops Fitz in 8)
    Jack Dempsey vs. Billy Miske 1 (draw)
    Jack Dempsey vs. Billy Miske 2 (Dempsey wins decision)
    Jack Dempsey vs. Billy Miske 3 (Dempsey stops Miske in 3)
    Jack Dempsey vs. Gene Tunney 1 (Tunney dominates wins decision)
    Jack Dempsey vs. Gene Tunney 2 (Tunney down in Long Count fight, Tunney wins closer decision)
    Jack Sharkey vs Primo Carnera 1 (Sharkey wins decision)
    Jack Sharkey vs Primo Carnera 2 (Carnera stops Sharkey in 6)
    Joe Louis vs. Max Schmeling 1 (Schmeling stops Louis in 12)
    Joe Louis vs. Max Schmeling 2 (Louis stops Schmeling in 1)
    Joe Louis vs. Bob Pastor 1 (Louis wins close decision)
    Joe Louis vs. Bob Pastor 2 (Louis stops Pastor in 11)
    Joe Louis vs. Billy Conn 1 (Conn ahead, Louis stops Conn in 13)
    Joe Louis vs. Billy Conn 2 (Louis stops Conn in 8)
    Joe Louis vs. Jersey Joe Walcott 1 (Walcott floors Louis twice but Louis wins dec)
    Joe Louis vs. Jersey Joe Walcott 2 (Walcott floors Louis again, Louis stops Walcott in 11)
    Rocky Marciano vs. Roland LaStarza 1 (Marciano wins razor thin decision)
    Rocky Marciano vs. Roland LaStarza 2 (Marciano stops Roland in 11)
    Rocky Marciano vs. Jersey Joe Walcott 1 (Walcott ahead, Marciano stops Walcott in 13)
    Rocky Marciano vs. Jersey Joe Walcott 2 (Marciano stops Walcott in 1)
    Rocky Marciano vs. Ezzard Charles 1 (Rocky edges Charles via decision)
    Rocky Marciano vs. Ezzard Charles 2 (Rocky stops Charles in 8)
     
  13. Thecheckjab

    Thecheckjab Member Full Member

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    Tunney vs Dempsey for sure. It was a lot bigger event at that times compared to Wilder-Fury who barely anyone knows.
     
  14. tinman

    tinman Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    I realize this is semantics, but is Joe Frazier really a puncher? Hes an accumulation pressure fighter.

    His peer George Foreman seems to fit the puncher label more to me.
     
  15. Jayme Chavez

    Jayme Chavez New Member Full Member

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