History without the colour bar, who would be the winners and loosers?

I really dont think guys like denver ed martin, joe jeanette, sam mcvez, childs and larry gaines would have been world champs. George godfrey is a possibility.

 

who do you think they would lose too?

 

At Heavyweight the World Championship could of gone like this:

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Good post:good All possible, except Schmeling wouldn't have beaten Tunney:nono And where is Jack Sharkey?:think

 

Gains beat Schemeling in fight. He was real good.

 

Good picks. I think Jeannette and Mcvey, although they lost more than won against Langford, could've have brief reigns in addition to the ones you mentioned.

 

A question here fellows...How did the Jack Johnson/Sam Langford fight play out? I had thought from what I've heard, that Johnson had little difficulty with him...
It's true Sam never did recieve a rematch...but would it have mattered? Johnson had bigger fights with white contenders $....

 

The fuss is not because Johnson/Langford was close; it was not, most reports suggest Langford was too inexperienced and was schooled by Johnson; it was because Johnson was helped by the NSC (National Sporting Club: the precursor to the British Boxing Board of Control) to get the Burns fight, in return he promised to come back to Britain with or without the Championship and fight Langford. The NSC was very angry that Johnson never returned to fulfill a contract to them; and the NSC had influence in boxing and could help get the bad word out about Jack avoiding Sammy.

 

Thanks for the info...:good

 

I think that most people greatly overate the colour bar. The obvious fighters whose reputation could have grown are Jackson, Langford, wills, McVey. But what effect would holding the title really have on their all time great legacies? All would have probably had more to lose than gain from the lifting of the colour bar.

Peter Jackson - Realistically speaking, it is unlikely he would have fought John L. If he fights him and wins, it does not mean that much, given sullivans deterioration. If he loses (and he easily could, if john l landed) then his ATG ranking drops massively. Likewise, with Corbett, they fought once and drew. There is no doubt that Jackson deteriorates after this fight, due to ill health and alcoholism. Without the colour bar, Corbett gives him a rematch. Based on the first fight, you would expect a ******* of a fight. Probably a draw but it could go either way. But does it matter? with a rivalry like these two had, the demand for a third (and possibly even 4th) fight is going to happen, and eventually Jackson's deterioration will mean that corbett wins, probably by knockout. Either way, Jackson would have a short life as champion and he would likely be KOd. I am fairly certain this would mean his chin would be questioned and he would end up ranking behind Corbett because of this by virtually everyone (like Ali goes behind Frazier). I think no matter what happens, Jackson would only rank where he ranks now, or his ranking would go down.

John L Sullivan - this is one guy, I believe whose ranking would have only gone up without the colour bar. There were no coloured fighters capable of defeating him and whoever he fought, he would have beat, up to Peter Jackson. By this time, a loss to jackson would have meant no more than a loss to Corbett did. In contrast, a win against Jackson would have massively boosted his ATG standing in the eyes of many.

James Corbett - I dont see much difference for his career. He ducked Jackson as champ but already had fought him once. I think He ranks the same no matter what happens.

Bob Fitzsimmons - another whose legacy wouldnt have really changed. It would have been great to see a Fitzsimmons Jackson title fight, and he would have likely won this and added to his legacy, but that wasnt really a makeable world title fight anyway.

James Jeffries - this is the guy who had the most to gain by lifting the coloured bar (and the most to lose as well). Without the colour bar, Jeffries could have realistically fought and beat Langford, McVey and Johnson. In fact, he would have started heavy favourite against all three early in their career. Realistically though, only Johnson really had looked like earning a title shot, and that was debatable after his loss to Marvin hart. The most likely scenario is that Jeffries would retire as unbeaten heavyweight champion of the world and the consensus champion, with probably Marvin Hart, Jack Johnson, Langford, McVey or Root fighting off for the championship. Without the colour line, there is no way that Jeffries comes back, meaning firstly, that Rocky Marciano's reputation as the only unbeaten champ is not as legendary, but also that Jeffries retains his invincibility aura, even today. I think that he would almost certainly rate on the level with Louis and Ali with most people, if the colour bar was not around.

Jack Johnson has a lot to lose. Probably no longer the first black heavyweight champion. Possibly Not a true lineal champion (would say Lanford v Wills winner have a better claim than Hart vs Root winner?). Then again, on the flip side of the coin, without the big money he made from the Race controversy, would he have been forced to defend more often against Langford, Mcvey, Wills and even some of the better white contenders that were allegedly ducked. And would he have dominated these just as easily (or if focused even easier than) the opponents he actually faced. If so, his legacy could have easily gone up.

McVey, Langford. - both these guys could have won world titles. but would this have increased their legacy? they could have very easily won the title and had a short reign (like most champs due to outside fame and distractions). If this were the case, would they still be remembered and rated as highly as today. Also, what if they fought and were beaten (again) by Jack Johnson or knocked out while very green against Jim jeffries. They traded the coloured title, so they were unlikely to have lengthy reigns of the world title. IMO, they are very highly rated now, i can only see their ranking going down, without the colour bar.

harry Wills - This is a very interesting case. assuming the lifting of the colour bar meant he got an early shot, he could have changed history more than any other fighter. He could have eliminated Jess Willard from history consideration. He could have prevented Dempsey from becoming champion and he could have even ended and dominated Jack Johnson's reign. then again, by the same token, he could have also ended up losing to an old Jack Johnson, being beaten by an older Sam Langford, being knocked out by a focussed Jack Dempsey. Realistically, it is unlikely that Wills comes through these three challengers unscathed. You would have to think that even if he was to win the world title, the existence of a loss or two to these fighters would decrease his legacy, while a win over all 3 would not really raise his legacy much at all (Dempsey may have been considered a nobody who was knocked out by Fireman Jim Flynn in the first round if he never won the title, Likewise Willard would have been just a big journeyman who never won the world title, and Jack Johnson was just an aging ex champion). I am not sure that a title reign would have increased wills ranking all that much more than the title of allegedly being ducked by an all time great champion and the coloured champions title.

all in all, IMO, most fighters dont have much to gain from the lifting of the colour bar and most have more to lose than gain. Ironically, it is Jim Jeffries and John L Sullivan who would have both gained the most out of lifting the colour bar (even if they didnt actually fight any other black fighters), yet they are probably two fighters whose reputations are downgraded solely due to the colour bar, by many people.