Holding

What does that have to do with anything? You want to talk about Wlad holding Povetkin and as proof you find isolated instances of clinches in other fights.

And in the last of those, I see your boy Povetkin with his left arm hooked around Wlad’s back. That’s holding. Leaning over isn’t holding.

Am I supposed to go find clips of Povetkin in clinches to counter it? I mentioned him grabbing Marco Huck behind the neck, which he did repeatedly. And you see here and even in all those clips where Wlad is supposedly fouling that Povetkin repeatedly hooks his left arm under Wlad’s right arm and wraps around his waist. It’s called initiating a clinch, same as when he ducks his head under the arm.

Tell me how Povetkin fights clean when he has PEDs in his system. Please explain your definition of clean. Unless and until you can justify that, this discussion is over on my part.

 

Moron , it doesn't matter where Povetkin's arms where if Wlad clinched FIRST. . Which he did , over and over. . Show me Povetkin clinching FIRST?? I already told you its forbidden for you to address me directly. Just produce evidence of what is requested. If no optical evidence is produced , it will take that as you quitting the debate.

 

It’s like talking to a wall.

Go back to the fundamental video I posted on how to initiate a clinch — when you put your head under someone’s arms or extend your own arm under their arms, you are initiating the clinch. You are putting them in a position where their only choice to avoid a clinch is to raise their hands over their heads and no boxer is obligated to give his opponent an opening by doing that.

Again, if you had ever been to a gym and learned the first thing about boxing, you’d know that. But you ‘taught yourself’ on your couch on the internet so there’s no explaining it to you and you won’t even listen to Teddy Atlas or an amateur coach telling you ... because you know so much more.

I’m not going to find every instance in the Wlad fight for you because it’s plain to see. But go to 10:15 on the last video you posted and watch the next 15 or 20 seconds and you’ll see Povetkin hook the waist and not let go (like an octopus) while Wlad keeps punching and battering him. Tell me that’s not a Povetkin clinch.

Look around 14:05 at the slow-motion sequence. Povetkin ducks his head right under Wlad’s arm — tell me how Wlad is supposed to avoid a clinch there.

And for about the 11th time, tell me how PEDvetkin is a ‘clean fighter.’ Justify his PED use to us all while you regale us with tales of his virtue.

 

I think I'd agree until my favorite fighter got clocked and needed to hold while his head cleared!

Seriously, many fighters use clinching as a defensive tool because they don't know how to infight. They throw one punch and then jump in and hold. Terrell, Angott, Maxim, Godoy come to mind. This is especially difficult for and unfair to counterpunchers. Robinson tended to do it quite often especially as he aged, but also when he was younger. He'd throw a three- or four-punch flurry and then hold. He always employed just enough offense to keep from irritating the crowd. And he mixed it up with a good deal of his patented smooth footwork.

I think if a fighter uses holding as his main defense against an infighter or a counterpuncher then it should be within the referee's discretion to take the round away from him. I'd have to think a bit before I could suggest a hard and fast rule, but some fights are definitely ruined by too much holding as well as being unfair to an opponent, IMO.

One of the most effective practitioners of clinching was Joey Maxim. It drives me nuts to watch him, but he had a way of clinching with, say, his left arm while keeping his right arm free to punch and then switch to clinching with his right and punch with his left. It really kept his opponent from getting set. It was an artful way of clinching, but I still didn't like it.

Sometimes it's necessary to clinch when recovering from a hard punch or if you are off balance after being pushed or missing a punch and clinching should definitely be allowed in those type of situations. Even good fighters can become out-of-condition or lazy sometimes. For example, you could always tell when Giardello hadn't trained properly for a fight. In addition to a slightly more than normal puffy waistline, he clinched frequently.

That's about all I can drum up about clinching and holding right now.

 

You'd get loads of DQs and fans wouldn't be happy with that. I remember in 96-97 when Golota was DQ'ed twice, Tyson was DQ'ed, Akinwande was DQ'ed and McCall was practically DQ'ed for having a mental break down in the ring. Boxing really got bad press and fans were very disapointed.

Also when a boxers hurt he can't clinch to gather his senses? He would have to be ko'd or get DQ'ed.

Also it would vastly favour in fighters and shorter fighters with lesser reach in general.

It's a good thread but I don't think it's feesable in boxing.

 

You don’t even understand logic nor your fallacy.

My response was to you asking to imagine a world where holding was never allowed and suddenly it was, would that distract the crowd because the referee would become the focus.

Obviously it would NOT because in the world where there was no holding allowed the ref WOULD have to continually step in, take points and eventually DQ fighters for doing it.

If you then make it legal, the ref WOULD NOT be a focus because he’s not going to have to step in and warn fighters for doing something you’ve now made legal.

Go watch some amateur fights and be happy to see the sport officiated the way you like. There are thousands upon thousands of amateur fights per year officiated just the way you want, without holding and with ref’s stepping in after every exchange to warn one fighter or the other for some infraction. It should be like going to heaven for you, it’s exactly what you SAY you want, yet you say you don’t like it.

Which is exactly why no one would like it in pro boxing. We don’t tune in or pay to see referees. We want to see a fight.

 

This is a thread about rules and rule enforcement.

Or did you forget?

Amateur rules are strict on holding and strict on enforcing those rules.

That’s what you’re advocating.

Yet there’s a form of the sport where you get just that and you’re not interested.

So maybe you say you want something but when you actually see it, you don’t like it. Actually, take out the maybe.

 

Clinching to a degree is part of boxing. As long as it’s not John Ruiz level clinching then it’s fine. Lol And the guy who some call “The Greatest” used to clinch all the damn time and most never said a word.

I don’t mind it as long as the fighter that clinches also has other effective offense going too.

 

Clinching sucks. If clinching had always been illegal and fighters never did it, there's not a person in the world/being in the universe who would think, "you know what would make this sport better? If we let them hug and wrestle more to really slow down the action!"